It turns out that economists who have stressed the significance of the knowledge problem and the importance of information had it all wrong. At least, that’s the case if the socialist writer Nathan Robinson is to be believe. On Twitter (yes, I refuse to call the platform X, and you can’t make me), Robinson explains his solution:
Who knew the answer could be so simple? Unfortunately, while there is some virtue to be found in simplicity, this goes too far and ends up being woefully simplistic.
The first mistake here is similar to the one made by Daron Acemoglu when he suggested that the knowledge problem Hayek was focused on could be solved with a sufficiently powerful supercomputer. Both treat information as a static thing that just exists out there somewhere, perhaps in people’s heads, and all you need to do is collect that existing information and properly compute or aggregate it. But economic information isn’t something with its own independently active existence, just waiting to be collected and computed in the right way. Economic information exists only as part of the process that generates it. You can’t simply collect information and then use it to decide how to carry out economic activity, because the information itself doesn’t exist until after economic activity has generated it.
This is also true of the “information” that is in people’s heads. One reason is that simply asking people for information about what they want (perhaps through polls or when casting a vote) will often result in them giving you an expressive preference, rather than an instrumental preference. The “information” you get by “asking people is often contradicted by the information you would get by observing what people actually choose – and as the old saw goes, actions speak louder than words.
A deeper problem is that the information isn’t clearly available in pre-existing form even in our own heads, not even to ourselves. As James Buchanan put it in his book The Logical Foundations of Constitutional Liberty, “Individuals do not act so as to maximize utilities, described in independently-existing functions. They confront genuine choices, and the sequence of decisions taken may be conceptualized, ex post, (after the choices), in terms of ‘as if’ functions that are maximized. But those ‘as if’ functions are, themselves, generated in the choosing process, not separately from such process.” As a consequence, Buchanan goes on to explain, “The potential participants do not know until they enter the process what their own choices will be.”
Here’s a straightforward example of what Buchanan is describing in practice, taken from my own personal experience. You would think that I could easily answer the question of “Do I want a PlayStation 5 console?” For a while, the answer to that seemed like an obvious yes to me. If asked, I would have certainly said yes – indeed, I was known to mention it from time to time without anyone needing to ask me at all! But in the first few years after the console was released, it was all but impossible to get without a combination of good luck and good timing. But some retailers would let you sign up on a waiting list, and once they got some in stock, a random selection of people on the waiting list would receive an invite to buy the console. One day, I actually got such an email. I immediately clicked on the link to buy the console.

But then I stopped. I waited. Did I actually want one? I wasn’t so sure all of a sudden. I could certainly afford it – money wasn’t my constraint. But I started to consider another variable – time. When would I actually have time to play any games? I started thinking about what the opportunity costs were. Spending less time with my kids in order to make time for video games was a nonstarter for me. Cutting into my reading time was also off the table as far as I was concerned. I do weight training five days a week along with six days of cardio exercise – but especially as middle age sets in, keeping up on my fitness has only become more important to me, so I wasn’t willing to cut back on my exercise time. As I thought about it, I realized that there would only be small, intermittent pockets of time where I would ever be able to play any games – and as this thought process was carried out, new “information in my head” was generated, and I decided that I didn’t actually want a new video game console. But you couldn’t have gotten that information out of my head by simply asking me for it, as Robinson’s simplistic take would suggest. Even I didn’t have that information in my head, until the actual act of choosing was carried out to generate it.
Now, it might have worked out differently. Suppose when the time came, I immediately bought the console and never regretted it. Would that mean that in this case, the information really was there “in my head” and could have been accurately collected by asking me? No. What it means is that the answer you would have gotten by asking me was an accurate prediction of what the information would turn out to be. But it doesn’t always work out that way. What people say they want and what they actually choose when the time comes are very often different from each other. And I’m sure, dear reader, if you introspect a bit, you can come up with examples from your own life where you were surprised by your own choices when the time came to decide.
For his part, Karl Marx very much insisted on seeing the world as a series of ongoing processes, rather than collection of static things. Marx’s theory and analysis of those processes was irreparably deficient, but he deserves some credit for at least being ahead of many of his modern-day followers, who see the world in terms of snapshots and outcomes, rather than ongoing processes, or who make the mistake of treating information as nothing more than merely collectable data points.
READER COMMENTS
Richard W Fulmer
Sep 27 2023 at 12:54pm
So, without the free market and free market prices, much of the data we need to run an economy simply doesn’t exist. But that’s not the only problem. Even if the data did exist, by the time it was collected, much less analyzed, it would be hopelessly out of date.
And not all the information we need to centrally plan an economy is in people’s heads. We also need to know how nature will behave in the near and extended future. Will there be adequate rainfall or a drought next year in region X? Will there be an earthquake somewhere on the Pacific Rim that will upset supply chains? Will wildfires require us to shift resources from point A to point B?
We must also predict geopolitics. Will an invasion of country Y increase the price of wheat, copper, or microchips? Will political unrest in the Middle East impact oil supplies and how will that shift resources in the rest of the world? What will be the results of world elections and what will the policies of the winners be? Any coups or trade wars on the horizon?
And then there are questions like: Will there be a pandemic next year? What new, disruptive technologies will appear in the next six months? Will there be labor unrest and, if so, where and in what industries? Who will immigrate where?
And how will all these things interact to shift supply and demand, and how do we calculate that? It took 18 years to “solve” the game of checkers using an array of 200 desktop computers – a calculation, by the way, that required no data input and that had to deal with only 24 “players.” How long will it take to solve the global economy – a game with eight billion players?
Thomas L Hutcheson
Sep 28 2023 at 10:43am
All correct, but not too relevant to whether is possible desirable to make marginal change.
Personally, I do not see much use in repeated proofs that central planning cannot not work.
Richard Fulmer
Sep 28 2023 at 11:32am
It depends on the marginal changes you want to make. I want to move away from the central planning we’re already doing and toward a freer economy.
David Seltzer
Sep 27 2023 at 1:04pm
Hey Kevin. The scope of the knowledge problem expands from the individual to state central planners. How would any planner, central or otherwise, know the preferences of myriad market participants and allocate resources more efficiently than self-interested actors who establish market equilibrium spontaneously? Given the scale of market participants, equilibrium pricing in free markets represents all the information each individual possesses.
Trivial Example:
Recently I went to breakfast at a local restaurant. Perusing the menu, it became obvious that central planners had a low probability of allocating the resource components of a bowl of cereal, given they had little information of how I would randomly select from the available menu options. From the menu, I could choose Corn flakes (CF) or Raisin Bran (RB). I could choose skim milk (SM) or whole milk (WM). My choices would be determined by flipping a fair coin such that, p(CF) =.5 p(RB) =.5 p(SM) =.5 p(WM) =.5 .
The Fundamental Counting Principle: The possible arrangements follow with associated probabilities.
p(CF and SM) = .25
p(CF and WM) = .25
p(RB and SM) = .25
p(RB and WM) = .25
How would planners know what my preferences are given they only have a 25% chance of getting it right and a 75% chance they are wrong. If there is a third choice, when considering forgoing strawberries for bananas or vice versa ; If I randomly chose either a banana (B), p(B) =.5, or strawberries (SB), p(SB) =.5, to add to my cereal, the probability of planning success drops to .125. A 50% decline in predictive ability for the planners.
Henri Hein
Sep 27 2023 at 3:18pm
Yes. I suspect that’s why socialist establishments often have just the one choice. “It’s oatmeal or nothing. We used to add raisins, but somebody complained about that. So now none of you get raisins.”
robc
Sep 27 2023 at 2:48pm
The craft beer market is my go-to example.
Even if a powerful enough supercomputer existed then, how in the 1970s could it have predicted the change in the market for beer. There is no way it would have grown enough hops, for example (even the free market has struggled on that one at times).
Even asking consumers wouldn’t have worked. While there were some homebrewers and foreign travelers who might have been able to state their preference for beers different than what American brewers were putting out, the rest of the consumers didnt even know. And, of course, lots of us werent even 21 at the time.
Changing trends cant be predicted. Different producers can try different things, then jump on the bandwagon if they missed and a trend is heading a different direction.
David Seltzer
Sep 27 2023 at 4:37pm
“Changing trends cant be predicted. Different producers can try different things, then jump on the bandwagon if they missed and a trend is heading a different direction.” Good point!
Quoting Jon Murphy;
“Macroeconomic effects will tend to only occur if there is a single large supplier in an industry (in the case of socialism, the central planner is the sole supplier of planning). Thus, while the market economy may face the planner’s problem, LLN indicates that the planning failures will not create systemic problems whereas a central planning network would.”
LLN is law of large numbers. Producers are central planners also, but there are myriad numbers instead of just one. Some will succeed and others will fail.
robc
Sep 27 2023 at 4:50pm
I don’t know if Hayek actually said it/wrote it or it was just in the rap version.
Its also an answer to steve below. The problem isn’t planning, 300 million plans is actually a good thing for America.
Jon Murphy
Sep 28 2023 at 7:39am
I say smart things sometimes (although that particular point is older than me. I think I am referencing Robert Lucas there)
Henri Hein
Sep 27 2023 at 3:23pm
Excellent post. I believe the static view of the economy you describe is prevalent and problematic. Price controls in particular seems to me could only be attractive to someone who doesn’t see the economy as dynamic.
steve
Sep 27 2023 at 3:35pm
This is depressing. I thought the numbers showed that we would have an increasing number of older people/retirees so we should plan for more care for older people. Turns out I am wrong and should stop planning.
Steve
David Seltzer
Sep 27 2023 at 4:29pm
Steve, might I suggest The Vacuity of the Political “We” by Pierre Lemieux. It can be found on Econlib.
Thomas Hutcheson
Sep 28 2023 at 10:46am
I think the people I am communicating with and myself make a non-vacuous “we.”
steve
Sep 28 2023 at 9:08pm
Read it. In my stated case we could be my place of work, my corporation, my city, my state or the US and it would remain true. Demographics shows a population bulge with the baby boomers and they are aging into retirement now.
So I have problems with this.
“Economic information exists only as part of the process that generates it. You can’t simply collect information and then use it to decide how to carry out economic activity, because the information itself doesn’t exist until after economic activity has generated it.”
Reality is that people plan economic activity all of the time. You have to because you cant, most of the time, wait until there is a need and then act to fill it. So I/we, my network, my corporation, my profession, have to plan ahead. In the case of personnel needs I put plans in action 4-5 years ago and have plans out for the next 5 years. This seems like economic activity to me. I am spending money on the plan. Might it change? Sure, but just because I am likely to need to modify doesnt mean we cant plan.
Steve
David Seltzer
Sep 29 2023 at 11:58am
Steve, thanks for your thoughtful response. Yes people plan, but do so with semi-strong information. That is all previous and current information is used in making plans. But…plans change with new information arriving in the market place. For example; In 2019 My wife and I planned an extended river cruise in Europe. We paid for the trip BUT, Covid forced cancellations from Viking. New information forced a change in our plans and the plans of others as well.
Philo
Sep 27 2023 at 4:47pm
You write: “Both [Robinson and Acemoglu] treat information as a static thing that just exists out there somewhere, perhaps in people’s heads, and all you need to do is collect that existing information and properly compute or aggregate it.” This seems wrong. Where do Robinson and Acemoglu deny that conditions are constantly changing? Data would constantly have to be updated, and the authorities would always be operating with data that were at least slightly out of date; but the market process, likewise, does not operate instantaneously.
Your main philosophical point is that “the information itself doesn’t exist until after economic activity has generated it.” This also seems wrong. The state of mind that leads an agent to act exists a split-second *before* the act itself, or, at most, simultaneously with the act. If the authorities could detect these action-producing states of mind directly, they would not need the agent to act in order to know how to satisfy his preferences.
But you are quite right that these states of mind may not be accurately introspectable, so that asking the agent himself is a flawed procedure. And at present we have no better method, other than observing agent behavior in the free market.
Henri Hein
Sep 27 2023 at 7:14pm
Even if the state of mind syncs simultaneously with the act, the situation will be impossible to gauge externally until after it happens.
Henri Hein
Sep 27 2023 at 7:26pm
Another anecdote on this topic came to mind. It’s in the political arena, but I think it still applies. I was just reading about how John Kennedy had been chastising Eisenhower for not desegregating Federal housing. In the presidential contest with Nixon, he brought up this point many times. He said Eisenhower could do it “with a stroke of the pen.” Kennedy told liberals that it would be one of the first things he would do if he became President. Then when he came into office, he didn’t do it. After a few months of no action on housing, people started to send him pens to remind him of his words.
It wasn’t because he was distracted by other issues. Kennedy was generally in favor of civil rights and integrated Federal housing. Once in office, though, he realized that in issuing an order on housing, he would give up political capital he needed to push through bigger reforms he had in mind. It was a conscious political calculation.
Political leaders and business leaders and individual economic agents all face dilemmas like this. We say we will do one thing, but when actually facing the situation, we realize it’s not that easy.
Thomas L Hutcheson
Sep 27 2023 at 10:15pm
There is nothing much to disagree with. Estimating the effects of a business or government decision is hard.
Will there be enough traffic for a bridge over a river at point A. Does the value of the traffic justify the cost of building the bridge? What if it were a point B or two bridges? What will be the weight of the vehicles. How much would a toll reduce traffic and the value of the bridge? Do equal benefits accrue to people on both sided of the river? Etc.
Many these things depend on knowledge that is not in anyone’s mind until actual events occur. Nevertheless decisions have to be made.
Richard W Fulmer
Sep 28 2023 at 12:52pm
True. The question is: Will those decisions be made by individuals who understand local conditions, who can quickly respond to feedback, and who will pay a price if they choose poorly or by central planners who have limited knowledge and imperfect feedback mechanisms, and who pay no price for being wrong?
Thomas L Hutcheson
Sep 29 2023 at 1:51pm
Leaving the building of the bridge up to individuals to organize or not is also a difficult public expenditure decision plagues by information problems. What is the organizational capacity of the individuals? Do they have access to the same kids of data the state would need, etc.
Don Boudreaux
Sep 30 2023 at 8:37pm
Very good post!
Yet another point remains to be made: The knowledge problem, as formulated first by Ludwig von Mises in 1920 and, later, by F.A. Hayek, wasn’t focused on the preferences of consumers. This problems was focused on knowledge of the relative scarcities of inputs.
What are the least-cost means of producing the final goods and services demanded by consumers?
Even if we assume (contrary to what’s possible) that the central-planning authority knows the rank-ordering and weights of all consumer preferences for final goods and services, the following question remains: How best to produce these goods and services? If the relative scarcities of inputs isn’t known, then it’s a practical certainty that the production of final goods and services will be done wastefully – that is, using too many resources. The result will be that many final goods and services that could have been produced had knowledge been better will remain unproduced.
While it’s silly, as Kevin correctly notes, to suppose that government can learn consumers’ preferences simply by asking consumers, questionnaire-style, it’s even sillier to suppose that the central-planning authority can get the information it needs to produce ‘rationally’ by asking each input supplier “What is the scarcity of your input relative to the scarcity of other inputs that can be used instead?”
DL
Oct 1 2023 at 2:58pm
And even if such a questionnaire could be collated doesn’t Arrow’s Theorem show there is no “best” ordering? https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/arrows-theorem/
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