Contrary to what economists believe, there are no scarce resources. The public debt is a “social convention” as are government deficits. The physical world, however, is not infinite, and constitutes the sine qua non condition of mankind’s existence. There is one scarce resource: the Earth. Preserving mankind from climate change is thus the supreme goal, to which all necessary resources must be sacrificed. Such are the essential arguments of Le Monde columnist Stéphane Foucart (see “La dette, une simple convention sociale, est perçue comme plus dangereuse que la détérioration irréversible des conditions de vie sur Terre” [“Debt, a Mere Social Convention, Is Seen as More Dangerous than the Irreversible Deterioration of the Conditions of Life on Earth”], Le Monde, June 3, 2023).
It does not help the author to invoke John Kenneth Galbraith, a now forgotten dirigiste economist from around the roaring 1960s.
Much is missing in the journalist’s reasoning. A condition for the survival of mankind, otherwise than in small numbers in caves or in hunter-gatherer tribes, is that individuals cooperate efficiently. Consent is an essential component of the economic concept of efficiency. In market exchange and other voluntary relations, consent is easy to reach: he who doesn’t want to participate in an exchange just has to decline. Political relations are different, and there is no justification for part of mankind to impose on the rest its predictions or fears. Environmental models just provide predictions—as shown by the old Malthusian fears and the 1970s scares, which did not materialize. From a liberal perspective, any collective action must be founded on some sort of presumptive unanimity, and there can be unanimity only on general rules, not on ad hoc acts of regimentation.
Think of one implication of rejecting this liberal principle. The supreme goal to be imposed, by believers on non-believers, would be the salvation of immortal souls created in the image of God. Infinite bliss for eternity has an infinite value. Even the disbelievers will be happy, during all eternity, to have been forced to obey God.
Except for those who have infinite faith in the environmentalists’ predictions (the new religion), trade-offs still have to be made. For example, is it the current environmentalists through their taxes (and other forms of conscription), or their children by reimbursing the public debt, who will have to pay to save the Earth?
Something else is also missing: understanding what “the finitude of the physical world” can actually mean. There is only so much land on which to grow food, yet 1.5% of the American labor force produce today much more food for much more people than did 84% of workers at the beginning of the 19th century. Physical resources are certainly finite: there is just so much land, steel, or aluminum right now to build apartment blocks or wind turbines. But one resource is potentially quasi-infinite: human ingenuity, inventiveness, and entrepreneurship. As Julian Simon argued, man is the ultimate resource, and “man” means the several individuals rather than bureaucratic structures and state coercion (see Simon’s The Ultimate Resource, 1981). This is why the Earth barely fed 230 million inhabitants, nearly all poor, in year zero of our era, and we are now 7.9 billion, of which a large proportion are well-fed and comparatively rich.
On dangerous environmental scares, allow me to quote a recent Regulation article of mine:
Since the 1970s, environmentalists have been recycling Thomas Malthus’s arguments to claim that population stagnation or decline would be good because it would prevent or reverse environmental catastrophes. In his 1968 book The Population Bomb, Stanford biologist Paul Ehrlich warned that an exploding world population was hitting resource constraints and that, within a decade, food and water scarcity would result in a billion or more people starving to death. Governments, he opined, should work toward an optimal world population of 1.5 billion, a goal corresponding to 57 percent less than the actual population in 1968 and 81 percent less than today’s 7.9 billion. In 1965, the New Republic announced that the “world population has passed food supply,” and that world hunger would be “the single most important fact in the final third of the 20th Century.” The “freedom to breed is intolerable,” ecologist Garrett Hardin pontificated.
The “carrying capacity” of the planet is a fallacy or a hoax. In his book Capitalism, Alone (2019), Branko Milanovic gives many illustrations of the fallacy over the past two centuries. One example involved British economist Stanley Jevons (1835-1882), who reasoned that the price of paper would soon explode given the diminishing number of trees. He hoarded paper in such quantities that, 50 years after his death, his children had not used up all his stock. Milanovic adds (p. 200-201):
We are no smarter than Jevons. We, too, cannot imagine what might replace fuel oil or magnesium or iron ore. But we should be able to understand the process whereby substitutions come about and to reason by analogy.
Resources, including those diverted by political authorities through deficits (or inflation), are real resources, not “social conventions.” They are no more social conventions than finite physical or human resources that serve to satisfy virtually infinite human desires. Considered together, resources are limited, but substitutable and augmentable. Those that become relatively scarcer are economized as their prices increase, and other resources, including human ingenuity, are substituted for the scarcer ones.
If, and only if, institutions favorable to individual liberty and prosperity are maintained or improved, we can expect that (except perhaps for catastrophes such as asteroid hits or nuclear war) human ingenuity will continue, with limited resources, to produce more and more income and wealth, which means increased possibilities of consumption or leisure as each individual chooses; and, if need be, more resources to address, or adapt to, climate modifications.
All that does not necessarily mean that nothing should be (prudently) done now, but it does mean abandoning a mushy view of society and the economy.
READER COMMENTS
Craig
Jun 13 2023 at 12:20pm
Perhaps the PRC listened to him when implementing the one-child policy which, when combined with a preference for boys is putting China into near term demographic crisis. What are all those single young men going to do? Usually single young men have some tendency to cause trouble.
Mark Brady
Jun 13 2023 at 2:23pm
The public debt could be said to be a “social convention” in the sense that the resources have already been consumed at the time the government spent the funds, and what remains is how to finance the debt. Does the government continue to honor the debt or repudiate it (with implications, of course, for its future ability to borrow)? And if it continues to honor the debt by paying interest to the debt holders, how does it finance those interest payments? Through taxation (in which case whose ox is gored?), or the issuance of more debt, or seigniorage?
Understand that I do not choose to use the expression “social convention” to describe the public debt, but I seek to understand why someone might.
Pierre Lemieux
Jun 13 2023 at 5:53pm
Mark: A $1 bill represents a command (is a property title) on $1 or real ressources today or tomorrow (minus inflation or plus deflation, but let’s assume that away here). If the government appropriates it, a present value of $1 of resources is diverted to government purposes. To call this a “social convention” denotes, in my humble opinion, a simple ignorance of what money and resources are. (I am not accusing you of that, of course.)
Mark Brady
Jun 13 2023 at 2:51pm
“John Kenneth Galbraith, a now forgotten dirigiste economist from around the roaring 1960s.”
Nonsense. He’s cited today, far more frequently than Pierre Lemieux! Which is not to disparage Pierre, but to correct his assertion that Galbraith is “now forgotten.”
For an account of J. K. Galbraith’s place in the history of economic thought, read Godfrey Hodgson’s appreciation in the Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society in 2012.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/23558237
Monte
Jun 13 2023 at 3:37pm
For an account of J. K. Galbraith’s place in the history of economic thought, we need look no further than this quote by Nobel prize-winning economist George Stigler:
“All great economists are tall. There are two exceptions: John Kenneth Galbraith and Milton Friedman.”
robc
Jun 13 2023 at 3:41pm
For those who don’t know, Galbraith was 6’9″.
Mark Brady
Jun 13 2023 at 4:05pm
And Friedman was 5′ 0″.
Jaseem AHmed
Jun 15 2023 at 12:36am
I was a graduate student at Yale when Galbraith visited. The great man trod on my foot and seemed oblivious. Quite painful for me. His wife apologized on his behalf. He asked me where I was from and, when I told him, said in the most assured way that my fellow citizens had a great capacity for self-deception. Hmm. He may have been right, but what do I know?
Mark Brady
Jun 13 2023 at 4:03pm
“‘Galbraith’s notion of countervailing power is a dogma, not a theory’ (Stigler, 1954, p. 1o). ‘It would therefore be premature and even irresponsible to talk in detail of possible policy applications of so tentative and unplausible [sic] a hypothesis’ (ibid., p. 14). It was not always the case that Stigler had the last word in any argument. Consider the recollection of one who gave as well as he got, John Kenneth Galbraith. As Galbraith related the story, Stigler had said on more than one occasion that it was a tragedy of our time that so many had read Galbraith and so few had read Adam Smith. Galbraith replied, the deeper tragedy is that no one much read Stigler at all.”
C. R. McCann, Jr., Mark Perlman, “On Thinking about George Stigler,” Economic Journal vol. 103, no. 419 (July 1993), pp. 994-1014. https://doi.org/10.2307/2234716
Jon Murphy
Jun 13 2023 at 4:38pm
Given Stigler won the Nobel Prize, I’d say Stigler got the last laugh.
Mark Brady
Jun 13 2023 at 7:02pm
Jon, there are people for whose ideas you (and I) do not care who won the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences. And there are people for whose ideas you (and I) do care who have not won the Nobel Prize. So I suggest that contrasting the Nobel laureate George J. Stigler with John Kenneth Galbraith who did not win the Nobel prize does not grant Stigler the last laugh.
Jon Murphy
Jun 13 2023 at 7:16pm
I just meant that in relation to JKG’s comment that nobody read Stigler. Given he achieved the highest honor possible, clearly people were reading him.
Mark Brady
Jun 13 2023 at 8:40pm
I recommend that we don’t take Galbraith’s comment on Stigler too literally.
Our exchange led me to this paper discussing Stigler’s five lectures at the London School of Economics in March 1948. It’s a good read, not least the footnotes.
file:///C:/Users/coss-sa01/Downloads/mq-9168-Author%20final%20version.pdf
Pierre Lemieux
Jun 14 2023 at 6:46pm
In the New Palgrave Dictionary of Economics, Galbraith has one page, Stigler has 10. And the Galbraith entry was written by Lester Thurow.
Mark Brady
Jun 15 2023 at 5:51pm
And Karl Marx has 29 pages!
Mactoul
Jun 14 2023 at 10:00pm
Not very logical of Stigler. Galbraith would be exception to the inverse proposition– all tall economists are great.
Jon Murphy
Jun 13 2023 at 4:42pm
Just my two cents:
I think JKG is important for the history of thought, but as a theorist not many appeal to him.
He’s not forgotten in the sense no one reads him anymore. But he is forgotten in the sense that he didn’t leave much of an impact on economics despite his many writings.
Pierre Lemieux
Jun 13 2023 at 8:45pm
But I haven’t said my last word.
Monte
Jun 13 2023 at 4:19pm
The irony being that Stigler was ultimately more influential in shaping the economics profession than all his opponents, including Galbraith, combined.
David Seltzer
Jun 13 2023 at 7:59pm
“Contrary to what economists believe, there are no scarce resources.” I suspect Stéphane Foucart was absent the first day of Econ 101. The first law of economics is scarcity. Hence a price mechanism allocates limited resources and determines quantity demanded . If resources were not scarce, wouldn’t prices for for those quasi-infinite resources approach zero? The idea of BOGO’s makes the point.
As an aside: Bubonic plague, hit Europe in 1347, killing one-third of the European human population. The loss in human capital was catastrophic. Had that pandemic not occurred, is it probable the Industrial Revolution might have begun sooner?
Pierre Lemieux
Jun 13 2023 at 8:58pm
David: I think that most economic historians would answer No to your last question. The Black Death had the benefit of rendering labor very scarce, shaking the institution of servitude, and launching a liberating free labor market. The Industrial Revolution also needed financial markets (which were only just developing in the Low Countries), better protections for property rights, and the intellectual and scientific impetus of Enlightenment. On this, see Joel Mokyr’s A Culture of Growth –as well as my short piece on the Great Enrichment in the forthcoming issue of Regulation.
Mactoul
Jun 14 2023 at 12:21am
14th century plague was equally severe on India, China and Middle East. But no equivalent social evolution took place there or at least, these places took the calamity into stride.
Pierre Lemieux
Jun 14 2023 at 10:55am
Mactoul: Indeed, many causes were necessary to lead to the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution, including political anarchy around the 10th century.
Mark Brady
Jun 14 2023 at 12:54pm
David Seltzer writes:
“Contrary to what economists believe, there are no scarce resources.” I suspect Stéphane Foucart was absent the first day of Econ 101. The first law of economics is scarcity. Hence a price mechanism allocates limited resources and determines quantity demanded . If resources were not scarce, wouldn’t prices for for those quasi-infinite resources approach zero? The idea of BOGO’s makes the point.
There are two necessary conditions for an economic problem to arise, i.e., (1) limited means that can be applied to more than one end, and (2) multiple ends that can be ranked in order of importance. See Lionel C. Robbins’s An Essay on the Nature and Significance of Economic Science (1932/1935).
Jose Pablo
Jun 13 2023 at 10:26pm
“The CO2 we can emit before frying the planet” seems to be a scarce resource (or, at the very least it seems appropriate to think it is a scarce resource, just in case).
It is not easy for me to understand how human ingenuity is going to be applied to the management of this particular scarce resource taking into account that:
a) We were not aware, until recently, that it was a scarce resource
b) We didn’t know, even now, how “scarce” this resource really is
c) There is no benefit for the smart guy that come up with a way of consuming less of this scarce resource
It seems that “we” should come up with a mechanism to solve, at least, c) if we want this “human ingenuity mechanism” to be applied to solve the problem of the scarcity of “emittable CO2”.
Afterall “human ingenuity” only works with the appropriate incentives. And, in this particular case, there is none in place, unlike for the production of food where the right incentives existed.
Thomas Hutcheson
Jun 14 2023 at 5:10pm
To put it in “scarce resources” language, it is the capacity of the atmosphere to absorb the amount of CO2 and other GHG that causes the minimum harm to human welfare. I actually do not think that “scarce resource” is the best framework for thinking about externalities.
Jose Pablo
Jun 14 2023 at 7:02pm
Thank you Thomas, that’s what I meant / was trying to do.
I actually do not think that “scarce resource” is the best framework for thinking about externalities
and you are, maybe, right. But, on the other hand, “externality” is not a very productive concept and your favorite “solution” to it, “Pigouvian taxes”, sure lack some of the most relevant advantages of “markets”:
* lack of a “true” (not artificially/politically determined) price signal,
* does not provide incentives to create “additional offer” (ie thru geoengineering solutions)
* lack of “marginality”: inability to assign the rights to emit to the activity willing to pay the most.
I think that a more “Coasian” (so to speak) “framework”, although difficult to design and implement, could yield better results tackling this problem. Afterall, markets are, always and everywhere, a better solution than taxes.
Knut P. Heen
Jun 16 2023 at 8:57am
It is not the atmosphere’s ability to absorb CO2, but rather the ocean and the plants ability to absorb CO2 from the atmosphere. The majority of plants are C3 plants. They evolved when the CO2-level in the atmosphere was 2-3 times what it is now. These plants “want” to absorb more CO2 if they could. The ocean usually emits CO2 when the temperature increases.
Jose Pablo
Jun 16 2023 at 10:46am
However this “soaking up capacity” is reached, the relevant aspect of this “Coasian” solution would be to establish clear “property rights” over this “absorption capacity” (ie: 1/8,000 million of the “defined capacity” is assigned to every human being on the planet).
You don’t need the “absorption capacity figure” to be scientifically accurate to be economically useful (incentives wise).
Mactoul
Jun 13 2023 at 11:12pm
Malthus is fundamental to Darwin and always applies. Populations boom and bust incessantly in biology and thus four-fold growth of human population over last century proves little.
Humans are already taking about half of the primary productivity. Thus a very delicate situation exists particularly in Africa and South Asia.
Monte
Jun 14 2023 at 12:02am
Yes. A resource that has developed over time into a global brain of interconnected, self-interested agents competing and collaborating to improve the human condition. What Simon understood (and Ehrlich didn’t) was man’s capacity to overcome life’s obstacles:
Mactoul
Jun 14 2023 at 1:01am
It is the growth of the State that is chiefly responsible for the 7.9 billion of us today.
Primarily through pacification of more daring individuals. It was not food that was limiting in foraging period but endless war that kept humans in what is called pre-Malthusian state.
How long it would take for countries with billions to revert back to that state without the State?
Jon Murphy
Jun 14 2023 at 7:30am
Interesting hypothesis but I don’t think it’s accurate. At least, I’d want to see substantial evidence.
After all, we saw long periods of relative calm and very strong governments that did not result in large population and economic growth (eg pax Romana, Pax Byzantium, the USSR, the Egyptian Empire). Conversely, the hockey stick of prosperity occured during a period of, and in places that were, decentralization.
Furthermore, the Malthusian trap has been thoroughly discredited. För humans, its predictions have been utterly false. To appeal to a longer timeline (as many modern Malthusians like to do) doesn’t provide any useful information. It’s like the guy who predicts the next recession over and over.
Mactoul
Jun 14 2023 at 8:44am
Like Mieseans predicting hyperinflation and Hayekians predicting descent into serfdom?
To repeat, Malthus is necessary base to Darwin. It is biologically certain. However, you are free to maintain that humans are outside biology.
Malthus is steady state and makes no prediction. Population doesn’t continue to increase because of war, famine, pestilence, restraint or vice. Contraception counts as vice.
Jon Murphy
Jun 14 2023 at 9:48am
Correct. Details matter (the refrain I have been preaching these past few days).
And yet, you highlight the very reason why it’s “certainty” is anything but:
It is precisely because Malthus is steady state that it has failed. The best part is we do not need to believe humans are “outside of biology” to explain why Malthus failed. It’s because of biology that humans were able to overcome the Malthusian trap.
Jon Murphy
Jun 14 2023 at 10:09am
As an aside about the Misesian/Hayekian descent into serfdom, it’s important to note both highly qualified that prediction. I think they overestimated it’s probability, however, and Sandy Ikeda’s Dynamics of a Mixed Economy (which is still Hayekian/Misesian) does a better job explaining what we see in the real world.
Jon Murphy
Jun 14 2023 at 10:44am
By the way, I’m having trouble reconciling your defense of tbe state with your defense of Malthus. The two seem to be in tension. You claim Malthus is a “biological certainty” but you also imply that the state, by reigning in war, famine, etc, is responsible for growth. Which is it? Is Malthus certain or can it be overcome?
Mactoul
Jun 14 2023 at 9:32pm
Malthus is just the proposition that populations are always pressing against the resources available.
But resources can increase and have increased. But it took human evolution to evolve us to the point we live drowned in a sea of strangers.
The state was vital to this evolution by removing too-aggresive, too -violent from the gene pool. As it is said, humans self-domesticated themselves (in a precise biological sense) and the state was how humans did it.
Jon Murphy
Jun 15 2023 at 6:23am
No. That is absolutely false. Humans have always been subject to constraints since that unfortunate event in the Garden of Eden. Malthus didn’t propose that. It’s a fact of life.
Malthus was that there are natural wages and population levels. Resources can only temporarily increase (eg a bumper crop) but population has a natural upper limit that cannot be overcome.
Jose Pablo
Jun 15 2023 at 1:26pm
since that unfortunate event in the Garden of Eden
I wouldn’t call eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil an “unfortunate” event.
Quite the contrary, I think it was the most fortunate event ever. The one that allows us to escape from the required conformity of the cage of norms of the most primitive society, to the path to individual liberty we are walking now (in the right direction most of the time).
Pierre Lemieux
Jun 16 2023 at 12:18pm
Jose: Original idea!
nobody.really
Jun 18 2023 at 1:00pm
Original sin!
Pierre Lemieux
Jun 14 2023 at 11:07am
Jon: You write:
Chinese empires are probably the best example of that.
Jon Murphy
Jun 14 2023 at 12:39pm
Yes! I forgot about them. My knowledge of Eastern civilizations is sadly lacking
Jose Pablo
Jun 14 2023 at 1:55pm
And Cuba is a great example of the fact that “the growth of the State” does NOT have a positive influence on crops yields.
The American Revolution was the biggest effort that the world has seen to limit the power of the State over the individual. Even being a Failure (as it has been) the USA has, thanks to that, a smaller State that most (if not all) countries. And also, it has one of the highest productivities (the biggest “managed economy” has a GDP per capita between 1/4 and 1/6 of that of the USA … and most of that thanks to the “non-managed” part)
How do you get, from this fact, the conclusion that “the growth of the State” is responsible for our prosperity is a logical mystery to me.
Mactoul
Jun 14 2023 at 9:57pm
Compare US to any stateless society– such as any current or recent foraging people.
US is so highly organized through State, leaving aside spontaneous order, relative to any stateless society that comparison of US with any other state society is strictly marginal.
That is, difference between two state societies is marginal compared with the difference between a state and a non-state society.
Pierre Lemieux
Jun 14 2023 at 10:38pm
Mactoul: Is this why so many people want to immigrate to the US from societies with just a “marginal” difference?
Jose Pablo
Jun 15 2023 at 10:35am
Compare US to any stateless society– such as any current or recent foraging people.
Here you are taking a serious risk of confusing correlation with causation. Since you need productivity above the individual survival level to allow for a parasitic State to appear, only societies with this kind of productivity will have States.
And only high productivity societies can afford Big parasitic States. So, the higher the productivity, the bigger the State. But you cannot infer from that that States are “helping” the increase in productivity of these societies. For that you need to build the counterfactual that these societies would be less productive without the parasitic State.
And the fact that there is the clear tendency that I was pointing out: the smaller the State the most prosperous the society, means, at the very least, that your interpretation requires the existence of an “inflexion point”: a size of the State at which the correlation between size and prosperity changes from the negative that we can observe among existing states to the positive one that you advocate. And this size should be “smaller” that the size of modern states.
That could very much be the case (a “minarchist” position a la Nozick). But still your argument is very far from “proving” your case.
Jon Murphy
Jun 15 2023 at 11:57am
But those margins matter a lot. “Marginal” does not mean “insignificant” nor “small.”
Thomas Hutcheson
Jun 14 2023 at 4:57pm
I certainly would not have the patience to engage with such an article, so thank you.
I think the refutation would be more complete if one had a sense of what the “something” than might prudently be done now is.
Pierre Lemieux
Jun 14 2023 at 6:40pm
Thomas: That’s a good question. But before we raise it, we should perhaps wonder if Jevons was not a bit too quick on the trigger. And–important point–he was deciding only for himself.
Jose Pablo
Jun 14 2023 at 7:14pm
And that’s a very relevant point in the “design” of the solution that Thomas is asking for.
The “solution” should allow the level of CO2 that “we” humans emit to be, precisely, the aggregate of the amount of CO2 that each individual is willing to emit. Contrary to “utility” and “preferences”, CO2 emissions do add.
Same way that the amount of meat that we humans eat in a given year is, precisely, the aggregate of the amount of meat that each individual decides to consume.
Sure, this requires a “well design market oriented pricing” of CO2 and the disregard of more “control and command” kind of solutions like centrally imposed taxes, based on centrally decided (by the likes of Jevons) maximums amounts of annual CO2 emissions.
Richard Fulmer
Jun 14 2023 at 8:39pm
Claims that complex system X is a “social convention” or a “social construct” are often preamble to assertions that “we” (that is, people who share the author’s worldview) can design a new and better X.
What such claimants ignore (or are ignorant of) is that complex systems are not designed. Instead they emerge over time from the iterative actions and reactions of countless individuals. Such evolved institutions cannot be replaced simply by acts of will.
Mactoul
Jun 14 2023 at 9:44pm
“From a liberal perspective, any collective action must be founded on some sort of presumptive unanimity”
There is, I believe, a virtual unanimity among common people that collective actions do not require unanimity.
Pierre Lemieux
Jun 14 2023 at 10:48pm
Mactoul: Yes, some “autistic” individual might think that only his individual consent is necessary. As soon as he realizes that other individuals think the same–and this realization should come pretty quickly–he realizes that some unanimity is required. And any plausible unanimity can only be on rules. Otherwise, it is either Leviathan or the war of all against all.
Once all that is understood, difficult issues (perhaps matters of degrees) can be discussed, as Buchanan, Tullock, and Brennan (or for that matter Rawls) try to do.
Mactoul
Jun 15 2023 at 2:48am
Would events wait for unanimity to appear?
And is unanimity even guaranteed?
The point I am trying to make is most people simply don’t share the Buchanan’s view. They want government to be active on their behalf.
It is similar to the problem being faced by one seeking to convince others that collectives don’t exist.
But ordinary people do feel themselves to belong to collectives. Are they suffering from some false consciousness?
Ironically, the primitives are less likely to suffer from this “false ” consciousness. It took plenty of evolution for man to feel himself belonging to collectives, millions and billions strong.
Jose Pablo
Jun 15 2023 at 10:55am
the primitives are less likely to suffer from this “false ” consciousness. It took plenty of evolution for man to feel himself belonging to collectives, millions and billions strong.
This is simple false
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjgL7Pumb4Q
“Men” feel themselves mostly belonging to collectives . The relevance of the individual (in particular in his/her struggle against the collectivity) is the most amazing “conquest” of “modern” men (from the death of Socrates to the right to pursue your own happiness to the LGBTQ movement).
And we are half the way down this road and can, very easily reverse path and happens in son many places. Think of the prevalence (still!!) in the use of the “we” or of Russia (where the “we” is everywhere).
So, yes, the many that you observe want “government to be active on their behalf” do exist. They are a reminiscent of the chimp that “we” used to be.
Mactoul
Jun 18 2023 at 12:37am
Nationalism is 19-20 century phenomenon.
Pierre Lemieux
Jun 18 2023 at 11:04am
Mactoul: You write:
Correct. Nationalism is the modern remnant of tribalism. Hayek’s The Fatal Conceit is unavoidable on the general topic of the Great Society against the tribe.
Jose Pablo
Jun 18 2023 at 12:47pm
Nationalism is 19-20 century phenomenon.
Yes, and the rise of theocratic Muslim strong states is a 21st century phenomenon (together with the rise of Modern collective China and Putin’s Russia).
But I don’t think these states represents the “evolution of human beings in their quest to belong to collectives“. They are easier to understand as a “regression” towards the tribal chimpanzee that we all keep inside (some more than others), fostered by strongmen of the worst kind for their own benefit.
Even Putin is a joke of an alpha compare with the ones that “we” used to have millions of years ago.
Pierre Lemieux
Jun 15 2023 at 8:59pm
Mactoul: Jose is right. Individualism and individual liberty is a modern conquest. See the short, well-known 1819 lecture by Benjamin Constant: The Liberty of Ancients Compared with that of Moderns.
Mactoul
Jun 14 2023 at 10:14pm
Did the classical liberals think that we can do without the state itself?
That not even the pacification and defense of people are required?
I do think that there is a great gulf between the classical liberals and the modern anarchists and they should not be confounded together.
Pierre Lemieux
Jun 14 2023 at 10:56pm
Mactoul: That’s a deep and complex question, and I am far from sure that I have the answer. There is obviously some relation between liberalism and anarchy: see my post on “The Continuum Between Liberalism and Anarchism.”
Anthony de Jasay, notably The State, must be read to try to answer the question. In fact, I believe that one major reason to learn economics is to be able to read and understand that book. Understanding that book is, I often thought, a necessary condition (but not a sufficient one) to answer the question your raise, whatever the answer one finally gives.
Jose Pablo
Jun 15 2023 at 1:01pm
From the (likely) fact that “we”, maybe, “can’t do without the state” does not, in any way, follows that the monstruous size of the States that we “enjoy” today makes any sense.
I do think that there is a great gulf between the classical liberals and the modern anarchists and they should not be confounded together.
Well, maybe. But that is a mostly irrelevant theoretical discussion. Classical liberals and modern anarchist do agree on the fact that the kind of States that we have now are wayyyyyyy bigger that the optimal State size (if any).
And that’s very relevant “on the margin”, since clearly points to the actions to be taken “from here”:
a) stop every single increase in size of the obviously oversized existing States
b) take significant measures to reduce the State intervention in the economy and in people’s lives.
Once we move further enough on this path that both classical liberals and modern anarchists advocate, it would result evident and clear to all, that the No State at all that modern anarchists defend is way superior to the smaller State that classical liberals propose.
No need to enter this discussion now. From the “semiparadise” of a “10%-of-GDP-kind-of-State”, the view of the “real paradise” of anarchism (where the individual will be, finally, free) will be much more clear.
Pierre Lemieux
Jun 15 2023 at 2:37pm
Jose: That looks like a good discovery plan.
Warren Platts
Jun 19 2023 at 5:50am
Ecology is real. Technology doesn’t eliminate ecology. Does it matter if Erlich turns out to be right in 500 years instead of 5 years?
What you people don’t understand is that there are literal limits to growth. At a 1% growth rate per year you soon run into thermodynamic constraints and within historically relevant time spans. Eventually, it would require a ball of humans expanding faster than the speed of light.
So the population MUST come to a steady state at some point. It’s not even a question of ecology or economics. It’s a matter of pure mathematics.
You can argue that we have plenty of time to kick the can down the road for another couple of hundred years. And you might be right.But at some point, the population must stabilize at the carrying capacity.
Granted, we may become a space faring civilization. Huge O’Neil cyliner colonies holding trillions of people. But EVEN THEN, unless we figure out a way to special relativity, there would STILL have to be a steady state of population..
So choose your poison. We can manage the population, or we can let nature take it’s course. Actually, nature taking it’s course seems to be working in that it looks like the population will top out naturally without resorting to famines and world wars. Thus the question is, is this natural process something to be applauded or decried? Do we really need technocrats monkeying with this process?
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