There’s a sort of boomlet in authoritarian nationalism, with some prominent conservative leaders touting the Orban regime in Hungary, or even the earlier Salazar regime in Portugal. But what is authoritarian nationalism?
This term has been applied to regimes as dissimilar as the governments of Hungary, Poland, Turkey, Russia, India, China, and Brazil. Some of these countries are democracies, some are dictatorships, and some fall in between those two extremes. So what do they have in common? I see a few patterns, although the following traits don’t fit all the aforementioned countries:
Nationalism: Nationalists focus on unifying around a given ethnic group, rather than people who happen to be living in a particular political entity. Thus to the Chinese leadership, Han people in Taiwan (or even Singapore) are far more “Chinese” than Uyghurs living in western China. To the Hungarian leadership, an ethnic Hungarian living in Romania is more Hungarian that a Roma individual living within Hungary. Nationalism is not patriotism! A French patriot roots for their Olympic basketball team; a French nationalist grumbles that almost all the players are black.
Nationalism has both a geographical and a temporal aspect. Minority groups are viewed with suspicion, as they are seen as weakening tribal identity. Note that “identity politics” is not an inherently left or right wing idea. Where it favors minority groups, it is typically framed as left wing. When it favors the majority ethnic group (or more precisely the group in power–recall South Africa before 1994), it’s typically viewed as right wing. Thus nationalists tend to oppose immigration, which threatens to dilute the dominant ethnic group.
This desire to preserve the tribe also leads to resistance to cultural change over time. Nationalists oppose globalization, as it threatens to upend traditional ways of life. Similarly, nationalists oppose cultural liberalism, viewing ideas such as women’s rights and gay rights with a high degree of skepticism. Universities are viewed with distrust, as they often embrace cosmopolitan ideas. Nationalists favor an approach to teaching history that whitewashes any past atrocities committed by their nation. If the dominant tribe is not viewed as being morally superior, then the argument against cosmopolitanism is weakened.
Authoritarianism: In many cases, a nationalist government attempts to consolidate power by exerting control over alternative branches of government and alternative sources of information. The primary targets are the executive, legislative, and judicial branches, as well as the media and the universities. The goal is to eliminate any sort of “checks and balances” that might restrict the ability of outside forces to constrain the power of the regime.
Why is nationalism often combined with authoritarianism? Perhaps because they know that if the government were to alternate between nationalist and cosmopolitan regimes, then the nationalists would lose in the long run. What good does it do to restrict immigration if the next government allows a massive inflow of refugees from the Middle East?
The term “authoritarian” usually connotes non-democratic. And yet there is no reason to assume that a democratically elected government cannot become authoritarian. Often there are constitutional provisions or informal norms that limit the power of a government, but those restraints can be changed, particularly if the government wins a large enough number of seats to change the constitution.
Authoritarian nationalism is by far the most important political development of the 21st century—nothing else even comes close. This is not because authoritarian nationalists have control in most countries; rather it is because this is where all the energy is. Support for Biden is wide but not very intense, whereas support for Trump is consistently below 50%, but quite passionate. (Because of its diversity, the US is not fertile ground for nationalism, but is fertile ground for a left wing version of identity politics.)
As someone who came of age in the 20th century, I’ve been disappointed by the weakness of classical liberal parties all over the world (albeit pleasantly surprised by the weakness of socialist parties.)
Because the authoritarian nationalists have all the energy, the prospects for liberalism are not bright. Laurent Pech points out that the EU has been rather toothless in trying to prevent an erosion of liberty in Hungary and Poland:
To begin with, simply publishing an annual report will not help contain and address rule of law backsliding in countries such as Hungary and Poland. Indeed, an annual reporting cycle will not, in and of itself, help prevent deliberate/systemic violations of the rule of law or deter legal hooligans, as the Report is a mere after-the-event reporting mechanism making no concrete recommendations. After all, there have been 13 years of reports regarding the rule of law situation in Bulgaria and Romania and nobody would seriously claim that the “cooperation and verification” monitoring mechanism made any difference. Worse, in Bulgaria, the exercise was used, at times, to whitewash inconvenient developments. . . .
As observed by Professor Bárd, by failing to make clear “how authoritarian regimes are qualitatively different from resilient democracies”, the annual report cycle risks normalising the abnormal; facilitating whataboutism and praising features (e.g. the adequate funding of a captured Media Authority) which only serve to consolidate autocracy in practice. It is particularly irresponsible to claim, for instance, that “nobody’s perfect” when it comes to the rule of law, as this rhetoric only ends up normalising the systemic, deliberate and deceitful annihilation of checks and balances in both Poland and Hungary.
When I look at the EU today, it’s hard not to think of that famous line by Yeats:
The best lack all conviction, while the worstAre full of passionate intensity.
READER COMMENTS
Jerry Brown
Aug 8 2021 at 1:38pm
This is just excellent. Your explanation of Nationalism is probably the best I have ever read. Thanks.
Gene
Aug 8 2021 at 2:08pm
You’re describing “nationalism” as what should more accurately be called “ethnic nationalism.” There are plenty of “civic nationalists” in the USA. More precise language would be helpful here. Don’t paint the latter with the same pejoratives you apply to the former.
Jerry Brown
Aug 8 2021 at 3:19pm
That is a good point, especially in regards to the USA, where despite some lingering prejudices, ethnicity is really not such a big deal for the most part. But it seemed Scott was more focused on other countries in this post. Do you think there are a lot of other places around the world like the U.S. in that regard? Serious question since I have not travelled much to other countries.
Todd Kreider
Aug 9 2021 at 9:00am
Scott’s definition of “nationalism” is unique to this post. To cite the obvious from Wikipedia:
“Ethnic nationalism, also known as ethnonationalism, is a form of nationalism wherein the nation and nationality are defined in terms of ethnicity, with emphasis on ethnocentric approach to various political issues related to national affirmation of a particular ethnic group.”
With respect to his comment on nationalists “viewing ideas such as women’s rights and gay rights with a high degree of skepticism.” Yes, and so did pluralistic democracies for many decades or centuries until relatively recently with women’s rights and last week for gay rights.
Thomas Lee Hutcheson
Aug 10 2021 at 7:27am
But “civic nationalism” would not oppose immigration, or social change, or need to whitewash past misdeeds of people living in the national territory.
ssumner
Aug 10 2021 at 10:23am
That that sounds more like patriotism than nationalism.
It’s interesting that when I was in school we were taught that communism and nationalism were the two great evils of the 20th century. I still believe that, but I wonder how many people still feel that way.
Gene
Aug 11 2021 at 3:39pm
Thanks for making my point for me.
Daniel Klein
Aug 8 2021 at 2:36pm
Thanks Scott.
Here is the interview pictured above. (YouTube, 19min.) I recommend it highly.
MarkW
Aug 8 2021 at 4:05pm
French patriot roots for their Olympic basketball team; a French nationalist grumbles that almost all the players are black.
I don’t think that’s true. A French racist would say so, but most nationalists are not racist. As in other countries, many French nationalists are quite willing to accept immigrants who readily adopt and reflect French values and culture. There is, for example, a French pride in having provided a racial safe haven for <a href=”https://indianapublicmedia.org/nightlights/paris-noir-african-american-musicians-in-france.php”>American jazz artists</a>.
Nationalism has both a geographical and a temporal aspect. Minority groups are viewed with suspicion, as they are seen as weakening tribal identity.
It depends. I think Jonathan Haidt has the best take I’ve seen on the topic. This piece seems difficult to excerpt, but this strikes me as the key paragraph:
TGGP
Aug 9 2021 at 10:23am
A good example of that sort of thing can be found in some old British TV documentaries on teenage skinheads in the pre-punk era. They talk about how they like Jamaicans but not Pakistanis, because the latter don’t like reggae/ska.
Thomas Lee Hutcheson
Aug 10 2021 at 7:36am
I think this just proves Scott’s point. US immigrants come already quite assimilated to American culture and in fact adopt cultural norms rapidly (including some ones), yet “nationalists” oppose even the rates of immigration we have, much less a higher, recruit world talent policy.
Orkun Baysal
Aug 8 2021 at 5:07pm
‘As someone who came of age in the 20th century, I’ve been disappointed by the weakness of classical liberal parties all over the world (albeit pleasantly surprised by the weakness of socialist parties.)’
D you think what kind of factors (especially economic) caused this kind of downward spiral for liberal democracy?
Scott Sumner
Aug 8 2021 at 7:37pm
I’m not certain, but liberal economic policies have generally done better than statist policies.
Warren Platts
Aug 10 2021 at 12:59pm
Better for who? Yes, there has been plenty of economic growth (albeit rather sluggish in the 21st century). GDP per capita has gone up! But the fact remains that most, perhaps all, of this economic growth has flowed to an elite minority (the meritocracy) that has mostly given only lip service regarding the interests of the working class masses when the latter are not openly disdained.
The rise of populism is inevitable under such circumstances. And the populists rightly perceive that cosmopolitan globalism is root cause for their economic malaise: (1) free trade leads to massive offshoring of manufacturing capacity reducing the demand for labor; meanwhile (2) mass immigration of unskilled workers increases the supply of labor.
This double whammy must put downward pressure on the real wages of the working class even as the same forces increase the real wages of the meritocracy. Thus, even though the economic pie keeps growing, the majority of workers who are not part of the meritocracy do not see the size of their slices grow. Meanwhile, the share of national income that goes to labor declines while the share that goes to capital increases.
Hence Trump. And while he is certainly a nationalist (or perhaps patriot is the better description — that is what Trump’s supporters call themselves), to call the populist surge that Trump managed to capture “authoritarian” is pure psychological projection on the part of the left-wing and neoliberals: Trump supporters are not the ones supporting vaccine passport requirements for entering grocery stores to buy food.
ssumner
Aug 11 2021 at 9:18am
You said:
“to call the populist surge that Trump managed to capture “authoritarian” is pure psychological projection on the part of the left-wing and neoliberals:”
Please, Trump tried to overturn the 2020 election, and have himself installed president against the wishes of the voters. There is literally NO more authoritarian act than that.
And I don’t understand your point about economic policy. Are you saying that “average people” do better under statist policy regimes than under neoliberal regimes? Do they do better in Greece than Denmark?
Mark Z
Aug 8 2021 at 6:51pm
I’m not sure the lesson of the EU is that the EU is too ‘toothless’ in its enforcement. Perhaps even something closer to the opposite; a weaker version of the lesson learned in Iraq and Afghanistan: that it isn’t viable to impose a form and style of government on a country when it’s people just don’t want it. Maybe the EU should hold collective referenda, along with some of its constituent countries, like Hungary or Poland, and if either the country or the rest of the EU doesn’t want the country in question to remain, then it can/has to leave. An unhappy marriage can be worse than divorce.
Scott Sumner
Aug 8 2021 at 7:39pm
Everyone, I am talking about actual existing nationalism as it is practiced around the world today, not some sort of theoretical idealized nationalism that is free of ethnocentrism.
TMC
Aug 10 2021 at 11:55am
I’d say your definition is the odd one out, and as mentioned, already has it’s own designation of ‘ethnic’. Nationalism (non extreme versions, as most are) would be expected. Most people from Boston are Red Sox fans. Most people would be expected to have preferences for their own country.
ssumner
Aug 11 2021 at 9:22am
No, my definition is the term as it has been used in the real world. Pick up any history book and look at how nationalism has been described throughout history. Or look at how the media applies it today to people like Orban, Trump and Modi. It has nothing to do with Red Sox fans rooting for their home team. You are confusing nationalism with patriotism.
It’s like someone saying that communism is not the evil regime that persisted during much of the 20th century, it’s some idealist regime in the head of Karl Marx. Sorry. I’m not buying that excuse.
TMC
Aug 11 2021 at 9:44am
Oxford dictionary:
na·tion·al·ism
noun
identification with one’s own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.
“their nationalism is tempered by a desire to join the European Union”
Similar:
patriotism
2. advocacy of or support for the political independence of a particular nation or people.
“Scottish nationalism”
Rajat
Aug 8 2021 at 10:18pm
Thanks Scott, interesting post and thanks also for your subsequent clarification. I want to pick up a bit of MarkW’s point which I’m not sure your clarification addresses. Pre-Covid, Australia had for many decades run a successful ‘skilled’ migration program running at nearly 1% pa of our population. This program awards ‘points’ for various attributes such as having a qualification in an in-demand profession, being of working age, and speaking English. Like the value the French attribute to speaking French, Australia giving priority to prospective migrants who speak English could be regarded as favouring the dominant ethnic group. But as in the Haidt extract MarkW cites, this prioritisation is generally regarded as helping retaining popular support for a relatively large immigration program. Part of this is economic, as a migrant who speaks the local language is likely to find it much easier to gain employment given labour market rigidities and thereby not draw on government welfare. But part of it is no doubt cultural, with the French likely wanting all their citizens to be able to communicate in the same language. To a lesser extent than France, Australia has needed to tackle problems like children being taken overseas for forced marriages, FGM, and most recently, conformance with Covid-related restrictions, etc.
Conversely, there has been a lot of political debate in Australia and some nationalist/racist sentiment raised over Australia’s refugee migration program, due to a large increase in boat arrivals following conflicts in the Middle East and Asia. These boat arrivals – some of whom would destroy their identification before claiming asylum, making verification of their claims difficult – would take refugee places from ‘legitimate’ refugees applying from camps across the world. The government eventually responded by holding boat arrivals in offshore detention for up to several years as a deterrent, leading to claims of human rights abuses, etc.
My question is, what is your general take on these sorts of issues and trade-offs from the perspective of the nationalist/liberal divide? Just like free markets require the protection of property rights and rule of law (although not protection of vested interests) to function, do liberal states need to impose a degree of protection for certain dominant norms in order to offer cosmopolitan optionality?
Scott Sumner
Aug 9 2021 at 2:23pm
I agree there are trade-offs, and that it’s unrealistic to expect an affluent country to have completely open borders, especially a small population affluent country.
I also would favor much higher rates of legal immigration to the US and similar countries.
MarkW
Aug 9 2021 at 5:44pm
I would too, but I don’t think it’s politically feasible unless those immigrants are either from what Haidt calls ‘morally similar’ countries (what nationalist would ever get upset about immigration from Canada — in most cases, how would they even know?) or where the immigrants are “eager to embrace the language, values, and customs of their new land” and there’s a strong assimilation program. Otherwise, it seems a backlash is inevitable. What we have is a situation where many of the most passionate advocates for immigration are (self-defeatingly) also the strongest critics of assimilation and the most skeptical that their own country has any values and customs worth embracing. It’s very weird.
Mark Z
Aug 9 2021 at 9:28pm
Most immigrants to the US seem to assimilate into American culture pretty readily, despite the oikophobic sentiments of some supporters of greater immigration. I think economic factors, like whether there’s work available or how strong the incentives are to find work, probably matter more that the ideology of the pro-immigration movement. For that reason I think people who support economic policies that reduce incentives to integrate into the labor market are a greater threat to assimilation than people who dislike American culture or norms (though there’s probably a lot of overlap between those groups).
Thomas Lee Hutcheson
Aug 10 2021 at 7:43am
But immigrants to the US ARE eager to adopt the customs, language, etc. of the nation. And the US would have no trouble attracting many more who are equally willing and able to good Americans, just not good white supremacist Americans.
ssumner
Aug 10 2021 at 10:29am
Mark, You said:
“I would too, but I don’t think it’s politically feasible unless those immigrants are either from what Haidt calls ‘morally similar’ countries”
Why not more immigration from “morally superior” countries? Or does that lead to white flight from high achieving Asian school systems, where parents worry their kids can’t keep up. (I use scare quotes for “morally superior” because I’m being sarcastic—I don’t actually believe that one ethnic group is morally superior to another. But for those who do believe in that concept, why assume that we are at the top?
Mark Z
Aug 10 2021 at 12:51pm
Isn’t it obviously the opposite? That white people (and pretty much everyone) most want to go to the schools with the most Asians, because they happen to be the best schools? Or was that part sarcasm too, I couldn’t tell?
MarkW
Aug 10 2021 at 5:42pm
Has there been backlashes against high-achieving Asians (other than among the nationalists in the Harvard admissions office)? I’ve certainly not seen that here in Ann Arbor where, over recent decades, the Asian population has grown rapidly. Of course, nationalists are rather thin on the ground. But that’s kind of the point — high-achieving Asian immigrants don’t tend to gravitate those more rural, traditional places. I was thinking about possible exceptions to the rule, and seemed to remember some friction with Hmong immigrants in Wisconsin and Minnesota, but a search turned up this article. It looks like an instance of people with compatible values who were eager to assimilate (and whose arrival briefly re-invigorated a small town). By all means, let’s have lots more of that–and I don’t think that would bother the nationalists at all.
ssumner
Aug 11 2021 at 9:25am
Mark, In places like Silicon Valley, lots of whites flee school districts dominated by Asians, as they think the Asian kids study too hard.
BTW, immigrants do not have higher crime rates than domestic residents, so there’s no evidence that immigrants to the US are morally “inferior”.
Phil H
Aug 8 2021 at 11:31pm
I agree with all of this, and it’s why I wish there could be more detente between lefties and libertarians. I make lots of critical comments on this site, but I come here because the idea of government doing less and getting better outcomes seems really really good to me. I hope other center lefties will recognise that, too.
In the other direction, while I see that lots of things lefties say don’t sit well with libertarians, the right wing (as Scott says, the right wing that actually exists, not some notional version) is just as bad in terms of using and abusing government power, so I always feel a mystified by the support for Republicans that I sometimes see here.
robc
Aug 10 2021 at 10:51am
Right now there are a lot of leftists making arguments based on freedom of association and subsidiarity. There could be a leftist-libertarian alliance (not just detente) if the leftists would accept those principles across the board instead of just trying to apply them in one particular situation.
But they aren’t accepting a principle and then applying it to current situations. They are deciding the outcome they want and finding and argument that supports it.
I have generally found that progressives are very good at spotting the same problems that libertarians see. Meanwhile, the right is blind to those problems. But the solutions the progressives then propose are insanely scary stuff.
TMC
Aug 10 2021 at 12:08pm
This rings a bit true. My issue with the left is that the solution is always a mandate. Sometimes I don’t think they care what the mandate is, only that they can force people to comply. I have a visceral negative reaction to authoritarianism, which forces me away from the left.
Warren Platts
Aug 11 2021 at 10:04am
I would say the Libertarian/classic neoliberal “center,” if you will, is just as bad. The decision, for example, to set a tariff at 0% is just as much a deliberate government action as setting it at 25%.
No doubt a typical neoliberal will likely say “No no. Setting the tariff at zero percent is the government not acting.” That move is, of course, a mere rhetorical flourish — a verbal slight of hand. Because the fact remains that a governmental decision to set a tariff at 0% is still a **decision.**
And don’t kid yourself: a 0% tariff is enforced at the point of a gun, just like a 25% tariff. If the federal government says the tariff shall be zero, but Texas authorities try to set it at 25% anyway, the feds will swoop in with as much force as is necessary to prevent the collection of any tariffs.
Thus to the extent that Libertarian decisions to enact “non-actions” results in terrible consequences for a majority segment of the population, well then, that is, by definition, a using and abusing of government power.
Lizard Man
Aug 9 2021 at 12:30am
Are Hungarians an ethnic majority in a sovereign state, or are they a tiny ethnic and linguistic minority in a trans-national state? I don’t think that they EU and Hungary illustrate democracy, liberalism, or authoritarianism all that well. The delineation of power is too unclear, as is the idea of how to define what is Democratic in the context of an EU whose authority has frequently not been upheld in national plebiscites.
Related question: if California or Alabama votes to secede from the US, would Sumner support that? What does Sumner think of Catalan independence? Relatedly, how should conservative Christians respond to professions (such as academia) requiring ideological purity tests that mean that those individuals must hide their faith and publicly profess things that they do not believe? How should white people respond to a hospital that claims to give preferential treatment to people of other races regardless of a physician’s judgment of clinical condition?
How should people respond to “private” discrimination at quasi-public institutions like hospitals and universities? Employers? How should they respond when they know that they have very little chance of changing these things via normal politics? That is the kind of narrative I have read in some conservative publications. Should they just accept that they will mostly be barred from employment in many professions, especially those that are considers prestigious and influential?
I would love to read a Sumner review of Rod Dreher’s “Live Nor by Lies”.
Scott Sumner
Aug 9 2021 at 2:26pm
I’ll try to address this in future posts.
Thomas Lee Hutcheson
Aug 10 2021 at 7:49am
“conservative Christians respond to professions (such as academia) requiring ideological purity tests ”
Not by allying with a movement opposing immigration, upward distribution of income, trade restrictions.
Lizard Man
Aug 10 2021 at 11:23pm
I suspect that if the US had a system of elections friendly to multiple parties winning seats, a sizable chunk of conservative Christians would vote for a party that was culturally conservative and also supported redistribution of income in various ways. I suspect that a lot of people who vote for Democrats would vote for that party as well.
robc
Aug 11 2021 at 11:35am
Blue Dog Democrats.
Lizard Man
Aug 12 2021 at 2:36pm
Didn’t those guys go the way of the Dinosaurs, mostly? Maybe Joe Manchin and Connor Lamb still fit the mold, but my impression is that there are a lot fewer around nowadays. I think that it is a lot harder for politicians to build credible political personas that differ from that of the parties
BC
Aug 9 2021 at 4:22am
An important element of nationalism, or at least populism, also seems to be a rhetoric that emphasizes grievance, that the tribe in question is under siege or a victim of longstanding injustice. That rhetoric of grievance is common to identity politics of both left and right. Extremely aggrieved people feel like normal rules of morality (don’t kill, respect other people’s rights, etc.) shouldn’t apply to them as redressing their grievances becomes the moral imperative. The freedom from moral constraints in turn leads to the authoritarianism.
Michael Sandifer
Aug 9 2021 at 6:20am
This is a very good encapsulation of nationalism, and it’s challenge to republican forms of government.
As far as the roots of the problem are concerned, unfortunately the sort of tribalism described is largely genetic, being a basic facet of human nature, though probably with a great deal of influence possible during critical stages of childhood development.
Some triggers for the increases in nationalism recently probably include bad monetary and banking policies, vastly suboptimal economic distribution from a political economy perspective, costly failed wars, legal political donations seen as bribery(US), a general sense of widespread corruption, a general sense of weak state capacity, fears over terrorism, fears over outsourcing and automation, rapid social progress for minorities, and perhaps most importantly, fundamenalist religious extremism.
The last trigger more recently strikes me as the most important, as I stumble upon comments by Pat Buchanan supporters, for example, who seem to understand what the enlightenment is, and explicitly, publicly reject it, I’m favor of their religious dogmatism. Mind you, these are some intelligent, seemingly well-informed people who nonetheless reject much of the basis for modern civilization.
These are similar to the sort that shocked me a few years ago when I dined with a number of Christian conservatives. When discussing public schools and thr teaching of evolution and creationism, I mentioned that I favor vouchers so that parents could have a choice. All six of the Christian conservatives said that wasn’t good enough for them. They wanted to have creationism taught in public schools, and have evolution taught as just a theory that was wrong.
My guess is that, in the US, fundamentalst Christians who put more weight on the Old Testament than the New, an irony lost on them, don’t feel like they have any chance of winning the culture wars in a fair fight within our system, so they nkw reject our system. And they are certain they are correct that abortion is murder, homosexuality and divorce are sins, birth control is interfering with God’s plan, etc.
I think fundamentalist religion is an important part of nationalism in many other countries too, including India, Turkey, eastern European countries, etc.
Lizard Man
Aug 9 2021 at 11:34pm
Who are these people Pat Buchanan supporters? I would be interested to read about what it is that they believe.
Michael Sandifer
Aug 11 2021 at 2:55pm
I found the comments from Pat Buchanan supporters in the Amazon reviews section of books such as Suicide of a Super Power.
Lizard Man
Aug 12 2021 at 2:37pm
Thanks, I will check it out.
Todd Kreider
Aug 9 2021 at 9:28am
This is changing. U.S. News from April: “President Biden has a slight edge over Trump, with 29% of Americans holding very positive views of him.”
“Overall, 21% of adults have a “very positive” opinion of Trump, a percentage that has been on the decline since the 2020 election, when 33% of adults view Trump favorably.
With respect to Republicans: “According to a new NBC News poll, 44% of Republicans say they support the former president more than they support the Republican Party. That is a decline from 50% and the first time since July 2019 that party supporters outnumbered Trump supporters.”
TGGP
Aug 9 2021 at 10:18am
Scott Alexander’s review of this book about Erdogan is one of the best introductions to the subject. Better than anything I expect Sumner has read on it.
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/book-review-the-new-sultan
ssumner
Aug 10 2021 at 10:31am
Given that I read the review, it would have to be better than itself, a logical impossibility.
Michael Rulle
Aug 9 2021 at 10:43am
I think you should dump the nationalist paradigm—-it is, as you like to say, “not useful” in describing the issues that concern you—there are too many “meanings” some of which are self contradictory. I know you committed early on to that phrase and it is hard to let it go.
When you describe what concerns you, you literally say you are disappointed in “the weakness of classical liberal parties all over the world (albeit pleasantly surprised by the weakness of socialist parties.)”. I agree.
Including USA which I care most about (not only, but the most). You even say USA is not conducive to nationalism (by which you seem to mean ethnic nationalism). However, we are conducive to anti- classical liberal politics and even to authoritarianism.
The latter is demonstrated from the willingness of our last 4 presidents to increase their power over both the Congress and the Courts.
This does not mean we cannot critique certain kinds of nationalism——But I am saying the title of this essay should have been “the Anti-Classical Liberal Playbook”.
Language—even semantics, matter. It focuses the mind more sharply on the real issues you are trying to address.
Michael Rulle
Aug 9 2021 at 10:54am
P.S Last sentence above——not “even” semantics———but “i.e., semantics”
Jason M
Aug 9 2021 at 3:26pm
I find Scott’c cosmopolitan world view to be lacking in self awareness and limiting factors. It is a far greater problem in the west that authoritarian nationalism.
“they know that if the government were to alternate between nationalist and
cosmopolitan regimes, then the nationalists would lose in the long run”
His argument conflate nationalism, ethno nationalism and ethno centrism as the same extreme rather that distinct things that exist in degrees.
What do highly educated elites expect from the people of the world. Shall we all converge culturally to their preferred jet-set? To their one correct way of experiencing culture and identity; albeit a homogenized, shallow and transactional one at that.
Maybe most of the people in the world don’t have the resources or opportunity to embrace “everywhere-ism.” Maybe they will continue to be un-enlightened and provincial. Maybe they will want some sense of being rooted in a place, ethnicity or culture with some degree of permanence or future. Maybe those attachments will change slowly over time, shifting but never dissipating entirely enough for those with a more cosmopolitan taste.
I think that cosmopolitans are fighting ideas that simple exist and can’t be defeated. Rather we should concern ourselves with specific harms where they occur but not trying to shun these concepts out of existence.
ssumner
Aug 10 2021 at 10:34am
There is plenty of cultural diversity even within the US. Do Salt Lake City, Boston, Miami and Detroit have the same cultures? I’m opposed to nationalism, not to cultural diversity.
Jason M
Aug 10 2021 at 2:32pm
Praising cultural diversity does not really address the point I was making.
To the extent they have unique cultures Salt Lake City, Boston, Miami etc are geographic and political divisions too. Why is their sense of identity acceptable, while larger geographic and political units become problematic?
Most of the higher educated and higher status people I know seem fixated on nationalism. It seems knee-jerk to me.
Is your antipathy toward nationalism drawn from the “lessons” of WW1 and WW2? Those periods included extreme versions of nationalism. History has many other positive and benign examples of nationalism as well.
Again, I think there are specific events and harms that should be criticized, not nationalism per se.
Thank you for responding to my post.
ssumner
Aug 11 2021 at 9:35am
“Is your antipathy toward nationalism drawn from the “lessons” of WW1 and WW2?”
Sure, but it’s also drawn from what’s happening today in India, China, Hungary, Turkey, Russia and many other places (even the US to a much lesser degree.). It’s good that history is repeating itself in a much milder form than in the 1930s, but I’d prefer it not repeat itself at all.
I guess I don’t understand your point about culture. Germany has a distinct culture from France, and that’s fine. But Germany has rejected nationalism, and is very open and cooperative with its neighbors, and even somewhat “cosmopolitan”. That’s not to say there aren’t challenges; as we’ve seen it’s hard to have completely open borders in today’s world. So I’m not calling for 100% globalization, just less nationalism.
Lizard Man
Aug 10 2021 at 11:53pm
Excepting Salt Lake City, Hawaii, and Puerto Rico, isn’t it debatable to what extent the “elites”in various US cities have different cultures? Most of the “elites” of the US get thrown into the mixing bowl of colleges and universities with students from all over the US and even all over the world. Then, they mostly go on to live and work in a handful of relatively cosmopolitan cities, in professions filled with well educated people from all over the US and even all over the world. And they are the likeliest US residents to move around as well.
ssumner
Aug 11 2021 at 9:37am
Because of technology, some cultural practices will spread all over the world. American pop music is popular everyone. Elite hotels all over the world have similar styles. I see that as reflecting technology more than political systems.
ssumner
Aug 11 2021 at 9:38am
Hasn’t that always been true of elites? Didn’t the Russian elite speak French back around 1900?
Lizard Man
Aug 11 2021 at 12:16pm
First, it is a bit ominous to compare the US’ current elite to that of Russia in 1900.
Second, my impression is that elites in democratic nations are supposed to be more provincial, and that in the recent past were so. Weren’t the NE WASPS pretty insular? Placing quotas to limit Jewish enrollment at Ivy League universities seems to reflect something of an anti-cosmopolitan sentiment.
Tom D
Aug 9 2021 at 9:49pm
It would seem to me that the Woke Revolution more than comes close. I don’t see how Trumpian nationalism has permeated major institutions and Corporate America even 1% as much as anti-racism, the redefinition of gender, etc. When I log in to get my bank account balances, I’m immediately confronted with an “insight” about racial equity, not an article about trade measures needed to protect American jobs.
Which pro-Trump public figures are getting the lucrative endorsement deals from Nike these days?
In terms of promoting and popularizing illiberal ideology, my money is similarly on the Woke.
ssumner
Aug 10 2021 at 10:37am
I view wokism as a cultural revolution not a political development. How many politicians run on a woke platform? Trump ran as a nationalist; Biden did not run on wokism. You see a similar pattern in Europe.
TMC
Aug 10 2021 at 12:22pm
It’s a politician’s job to be nationalistic. One should prefer the country he expects to run if he would want the job. Would you be surprised to hear that the Red Sox’s manager prefers the Red Sox to win?
ssumner
Aug 11 2021 at 9:39am
You keep confusing nationalism with patriotism.
Warren Platts
Aug 10 2021 at 1:46pm
Plenty. Virtually the entire Democratic congressional caucus were doing photo-ops kneeling while wearing Kente cloths. As for Biden, he certainly pandered to identity politics: “If you don’t vote for me, you ain’t black!” And in his policy choices, there plenty of wokeist examples, the latest being the extension of the rent holiday.
ssumner
Aug 11 2021 at 9:44am
“As for Biden, he certainly pandered to identity politics: “If you don’t vote for me, you ain’t black!” And in his policy choices, there plenty of wokeist examples, the latest being the extension of the rent holiday.”
Sorry, but these are weak arguments. To cite an embarrassing faux pas as typical of the Biden campaign is just silly. In contrast, Trump’s Muslim travel ban was not a slip of the tongue. It was his policy preference. And rent holidays are foolish, but have nothing to do with wokism.
TMC
Aug 11 2021 at 10:21am
Do you have any other examples where a ban only restricts 10% of something?
BTW, the restrictions came from the Obama administration.
Warren Platts
Aug 11 2021 at 11:34am
All right Scott. What about Biden announcing ahead of time that he was going to pick a woman of color to be his vice presidential candidate? He made being of a particular sex and race a literal qualification for the job of vice president — and considering his mental state, a likely POTUS. If that is not a wokeist decision, nothing is. And he ran on it.
Grand Rapids Mike
Aug 10 2021 at 9:24am
Regardung the comment in the article about nationalist whitewashing atrocities, this is a neat way to dismiss a countries culture. But while were at it I’ll play the game, liberals, progressives and intellectuals have whitewashed the anilation of babies in the US and else where through abortion. Using the word “choice” to justify the murder of babies. The liberal tribe are really pretty good at covering up this atrocity.
ssumner
Aug 10 2021 at 10:38am
Which “culture” do you prefer, the German culture’s (honest) way of teaching WWII in the schools, or the Japanese culture’s (dishonest) way of teaching WWII in the schools?
Warren Platts
Aug 10 2021 at 3:49pm
Treating a classroom on a country’s own history as if it were a Nuremburg Tribunal sitting in judgement over some of the students’ ancestors is not necessarily more honest than alternative approaches. Arguably, the Nazi period was a weird anomaly. Moreover, the German people themselves, who were ratting out their Jewish nextdoor neighbors, were more culpable for Nazi atrocities than the Japanese people, where the wars were across a big sea and news naturally limited. Likewise, it would be strange to blame the American people per se as culpable for Hiroshima, given that the masses did not even know of the existence of the atomic bomb.
Likewise, the Nazi regime had no real historical precedent prior to the 1920s, whereas Emperor Hirohito was descended from a long line going back centuries, and who continued to be the nominal Emperor even after the war ended. Thus, to treat the WW2 regime as unreservedly evil would lead to a guilt by association to prior Japanese history as well as the current regime. It is difficult to see how that is useful for students growing up where all the soldiers are now all dead.
There is a rule for Wikipedia editors called “WIKI:UNDUE” that applies here, namely that editors should avoid going overboard describing a particular aspect of a topic — even if all true — because that leads to a downplaying of other aspects. Thus to treat Japanese history as one, long litany of atrocities, downplays other aspects, such as that the Chinese Communist Party’s subsequent atrocities committed against its own people were far worse, or that Japanese warriors were in fact good warriors in the sense that their bravery was second to none and that they achieved magnificent battlefield victories until they were finally ground down by the Allied war machine.
One can also question the success of German historiography of WW2 towards the goal of eliminating any sort of “Lost Cause” identification with their warrior ancestors. German warriors were good warriors in the sense that they were brave and achieved impressive battlefield victories until they were finally ground down by the Allied war machine. If an American should take pride in grandpa’s Bronze Star, isn’t a German similarly entitled to take a bit of pride in Großvater’s Iron Cross?
I was in a bar in Germany once located in this basement for a few beers. A nice place, but on one wall was a big “The South Will Rise Again” Confederate flag poster. What was its meaning? Answer: they really wanted to put up a “The Reich Will Rise Again” poster, but couldn’t because that would have been illegal. History class did not eliminate identification with one’s warrior ancestors; it drove it underground.
The implication is that German history class is counterproductive because it is not perceived to be honest by a significant segment of young Germans: they consider it to be government sponsored brainwashing. That in turn leads to a general distrust of the ruling elite. Thus do not be surprised if and when a Hungarian-style, nationalistic populist revolt in Germany takes place in the nearish future.
ssumner
Aug 11 2021 at 9:54am
You are confused about the purpose of history. It’s not to make people feel bad about their identity, it’s to warn them never again to election militarist authoritarian demagogues on the right, or communists on the left. It’s to show all the bad things that can happen when you abandon sensible political regimes.
Any other sort of history is just propaganda, likely to lead to increasing nationalism and friction between nations. A good current example is the way that history is currently being taught in China, which whitewashes all the CCP atrocities, emphasizes how China was abused by outsiders, and thus makes the Chinese people more nationalistic.
Schools should teach both the good and the bad in a country’s history. In the US, slavery and the treatment of Native Americans deserves substantial coverage, but so do all the positives such as the Constitution, the many opportunities offered to immigrants, the amazing achievements in science and technology, etc.
Lizard Man
Aug 11 2021 at 12:03am
What does it matter, to whom, and why? I don’t know enough about either country to be able to form an opinion. My only real opinion on the issue is that the teaching of history is a tool, and you can judge it both by the intended outcome and the actual outcome. Is the aim of the teaching the right one? Does it achieve its intended goal? Does it have an overall positive impact?
I have read that Japan’s teaching of its history in the first half of the 20th century angers other nations in Asia. I don’t know if that is a good or bad thing. I have no idea what impact it has on Japanese citizens themselves.
Niko Davor
Aug 11 2021 at 3:34pm
<blockquote>Authoritarianism: In many cases, a nationalist government attempts to consolidate power by exerting control over alternative branches of government and alternative sources of information. The primary targets are the executive, legislative, and judicial branches, as well as the media and the universities. The goal is to eliminate any sort of “checks and balances” that might restrict the ability of outside forces to constrain the power of the regime.</blockquote>
Is this bizarro backwards world? In a US university, do you think the right or the left has exerted political influence and control over the university? Or the media. Which end of the political spectrum has taken over corporate media and driven out rivals. Or the legal system? When a company like Coinbase declares they are going to be politically neutral, which side of the political spectrum is pressuring and threatening them?
Michael Rulle
Aug 12 2021 at 10:12am
While Scott calls Authoritarian Nationalism the most important development of the 21st century he does not define it. He leads off with asking what it is—-I look forward to his answer.
I have no idea what he is trying to say. Let me give one example. He states “all the energy in politics is with the authoritarian nationalists” He uses the US as an example (Let’s ignore his premise that the left is Biden and the right is Trump—-it is absurd—-but outside my main point) of this energy—-right before he says the US is not prone to ethnic nationalism.
So his one stated example of the energy of authoritarian nationalism, he says does not even have the nationalist part.
Yet he makes one very consistent point——which I completely agree with—-we simultaneously worldwide are moving away from classical liberalism while also not quite embracing socialism. He is disappointed with the former, and thankful for the latter.
So he is looking for a paradigm that he believes has replaced it. Many things have replaced it for many complex reasons. I wish he would focus on that.
Instead he is trying to make his “authoritarian nationalism” a one size fits all answer. It does have an appealing sound. But I really believe he is being unnecessarily complex—-not incoherent—-because many of his individual points make sense. But as a “model” of a trend in the world—-it does not fit.
His expertise is economics—-hence “classical liberalism” and “socialism”. We live in a complex world. Authoritarian Nationalism is not a coherent enough of a concept to explain what is happening.
He thinks I do not understand his points——but I do. We both have a similar education, and went to similar schools. Even taught at similar universities. My criticism is a comment——not a definitive conclusion.
In case it is misunderstood—-I do not want him to comment—-I know what he will say.
Michael Rulle
Aug 12 2021 at 10:41am
PS——actually, I do want Scott to comment. I was being a jerk
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