Here’s a question for you – should libertarians reject moral degeneracy?
(For now, let’s just table the object-level discussion about what specifically constitutes degeneracy, and focus on the meta-level discussion instead. Bob may think homosexuality constitutes moral degeneracy and should be rejected, but alcohol use is fine, while Bill may think alcohol use is morally degenerate and should be rejected, but homosexuality is fine. For the purposes of this discussion, Bill and Bob agree on the meta-level question that moral degeneracy should be rejected, even though they disagree at the object level about what behaviors are morally degenerate.)
I ask this because out there on the wild world of Twitter, a fellow libertarian Tweeted out the following:
“Libertarians shouldn’t accept degeneracy!” If you truly believe this you don’t know what libertarianism is. Libertarianism is a philosophy regarding the political/legal order, nothing more. Moral degeneracy is not an issue of the political/legal order, unless you believe that the state exists to make us moral. And if you believe that, you are categorically NOT a libertarian.
Certainly there are some thinkers out there who believe there is a role for the state to make us moral, and I share this person’s distrust for that idea. But I still don’t think his Tweet quite works, for a few reasons.
Let’s accept that libertarianism has nothing to say beyond the political/legal order, and thus it offers no prescriptions about what people ought to believe or how they ought to act beyond that specific realm. Even so, it doesn’t follow from this that there is nothing else libertarians ought to believe, accept, or reject. For example, I would say that “libertarians shouldn’t accept Holocaust denial.” Note that in making this statement, I am not calling for government-imposed censorship to silence people who deny the Holocaust. To say, “you shouldn’t accept X” is not the logical equivalent of “X should be banned by the state.” Also, remember not to equivocate between accepting something, and merely tolerating it – while I do believe libertarians should tolerate Holocaust denial on free speech grounds, you can disapprove of something while still tolerating it.
Holocaust denial is not strictly speaking an issue of the political/legal order, but libertarians should still reject it, because it’s not true. That is, the reasons that exist to reject Holocaust denial still obtain independently of libertarian political philosophy. Everyone should reject Holocaust denial for those reasons – including libertarians. Libertarians should also reject the geocentric model of the solar system. Geocentrism doesn’t run afoul of libertarian arguments regarding the political/legal order, but nonetheless libertarians shouldn’t accept it – because there are sound arguments against it.
Similarly, I know Christian libertarians who believe the state should have no role in mandating or compelling religion. Yet, they also believe that libertarians (and everyone else) should accept Christianity – because they believe Christianity is, in fact, true. And while I disagree with them at the object-level, I agree with them at the meta-level – if Christianity is true, then libertarians should accept it, as should non-libertarians. To say “libertarians shouldn’t accept Christianity because libertarianism is simply about the political order, nothing more” seems, well, obviously wrong.
And for the same reason, if there are sound arguments that moral degeneracy is a real phenomenon, and is bad, and ought not be accepted, then it seems almost trivially true that libertarians should reject moral degeneracy. One can believe this without believing the state is therefore mandated to make us moral.
So, the Tweet above contains a few confusions, as I see it. It seemingly conflates whether or not one ought to accept or reject certain beliefs or modes of behavior as implying that the state should mandate or forbid those beliefs or modes of behavior. It also seems to imply that the sole reason libertarians have for accepting or rejecting anything must come from libertarian arguments about the political order – and if libertarian arguments about the political order don’t touch on moral degeneracy, then libertarians have no reason to reject moral degeneracy. But who says the arguments of libertarian political philosophy are the sole basis on which we ought to evaluate ideas, or decide what we should accept or reject?
I prefer the more holistic approach reflected by Adam Smith, particularly in his The Theory of Moral Sentiments. Smith does say that a person who simply keeps his hands to himself has done pretty much all that he can justly be compelled to do – “We may often fulfil all the rules of justice by sitting still and doing nothing.” (That is, simply refraining from violating the negative rights of others.) But Smith’s vision was broader than this. He still believed there were ways we ought to behave, and behaviors we ought to reject, over and above the merest requirements of what can be justly forced. Fulfilling all the rules of justice was a necessary condition for a civilization to grow and thrive and flourish – but by no means was it the sole and sufficient condition. Smith spoke extensively about the desire not just to be praised but to be praiseworthy, and the desire to avoid not just being blamed but to be blameworthy. This entails that there are modes of behavior that in fact deserve to be praised, and other modes of behavior deserving of blame, and that we ought to engage in the former and avoid the latter. How is this meant to work if we speak as though the sole criteria for what we ought to accept or reject is simply what is established by the political order?
There is a danger of sliding from “even though we should reject X there shouldn’t be a law against it” to thinking “since there shouldn’t be a law against X, we shouldn’t reject it.” Theodore Dalrymple worried about this in his book In Praise of Prejudice: The Necessity of Preconceived Ideas, where he argued the latter view, in practice, “ends up increasing the power of government over individuals” by “destroying all moral authority that intervenes between individual human will and governmental power. Everything that is not forbidden by law is, ipso facto, permissible. What is legally permissible is morally permissible…This, of course, makes the law, and therefore those who make the law, the moral arbiters of society. It is they who, by definition, decide what is permissible and what is not.”
I worry that the above Tweeter, and many other libertarians, sometimes fall into this mode of thinking. In the Tweet that inspired this post, it was suggested that there were apparently only two options – either you think the state must be mandated to become the moral arbiter of society, or you must accept moral degeneracy. This is accepted with delight by many social conservatives before throwing down the reverse-card – while the libertarian above suggests that since the state shouldn’t be a moral arbiter libertarians shouldn’t reject moral degeneracy, some conservatives argue that since we shouldn’t accept moral degeneracy, we need to make the state a moral arbiter.
I reject both side of that coin. In my view, we don’t want the state to be a moral arbiter and this makes it all the more important that we recognize there are behaviors we ought to accept and reject independently of what the political order requires. Edmund Burke was right when he said, “Society cannot exist, unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without.” And if libertarians are keen to ensure as little control as possible comes from without, it’s all the more important to cultivate it from within.
Or at least that’s how it seems to me. If you disagree (or even if you agree, I suppose), do by all means say so in the comments! I’d love to hear your thoughts, dear readers!
READER COMMENTS
Scott Sumner
Feb 16 2024 at 5:05pm
Good post. One way to frame this is that a person may hold one set of views on policy issues based on their libertarian perspective, and another set of views on private morality issues based on their personal moral code. There is no necessary conflict. Thus you might say “Drugs should be legal, but I encourage you not to use narcotics.”
Mactoul
Feb 16 2024 at 10:40pm
Surely it depends on the drug concerned. If a drug is injurious to mind and leads to detrimental public consequences, then why it should be permitted to be produced and publicly sold?
john hare
Feb 17 2024 at 3:40am
It can be that the drug is injurious and that laws against it will be ineffective. The laws being ineffective in prevention leading to the War On Drugs that seems to cause more problems than it solves. Fentanyl seems to be the current hor0r story, though previously it has been heroin, meth, and crack cocaine. Anyone that doesn’t see any harm in those chemicals hasn’t been paying attention. The question to me is, “do the laws against, including prescription drugs, solve or exacerbate the problem?”
Mactoul
Feb 16 2024 at 10:38pm
Conservative thought argues that humans are weak-willed and prone to moral errors and thus State is required to restrain them.
Otherwise where is the external restraint and controlling power that Burke spoke of?
robc
Feb 17 2024 at 4:23pm
The church?
Family and friends?
Employers?
Any or all of them.
Jon Murphy
Feb 17 2024 at 5:35pm
Indeed so, robc. I was surprised to see Mactoul claim his was the “conservative” argument given it is typically radicals to believe the state is the giver of morals. Perhaps such a position is conservative in the rest of the world, but I cannot think of a conservative writer in the West who would hold that position.
Mactoul
Feb 17 2024 at 7:38pm
I had it from Russell Kirk.
Jon Murphy
Feb 18 2024 at 9:03am
Really? Do you have a particular quote or item in mind? I always read him as quite Burkeian and putting a large emphasis on traditional institutions, often denouncing the collectivization of the state.
But I will admit I am no expert in his thought, so there could very well be some subtlty I missed.
Jim Glass
Feb 16 2024 at 11:59pm
Let’s take NAMBLA. Should libertarians desire that the practices espoused by NAMBLA be illegal? For instance, NAMBLA parents getting together and swapping their children? Instead of being made legal and merely disapproved, as may be, on a personal moral code basis?
This is not a theoretical question. Some years back a NY City public school teacher was discovered to be an open champion of and proselytizer for NAMBLA. The Board of Ed moved to fire him. He objected that they couldn’t because he hadn’t done anything during working hours that justified his being disciplined, and the Board of Ed as a state entity had to respect his Constitutional rights to free speech, freedom of opinion, and freedom of association.
So do libertarians say that the law should be that the state must leave the NAMBLA man in charge of classrooms full of young children, or not?
BTW, the Burke quote is spot on. I didn’t know that one, it’s going into my file. Thanks.
David Seltzer
Feb 17 2024 at 10:25am
“So do libertarians say that the law should be that the state must leave the NAMBLA man in charge of classrooms full of young children, or not?” Good question and a bit thorny. The state may not leave a NAMBLA man brainwashing children so as to indoctrinate them. He’s free to speak, just not in a classroom full of ten year old kids. If the NAMBLA person is private about his proclivity, should the state remove him? I suspect there are gay people teaching who fulfill their duties with no reference to their sexual orientation. The libertarian option for a parent who objects to NAMBLA teachers is to remove their child from that school.
Jon Murphy
Feb 17 2024 at 11:37am
Your question and your example are two very different things. You ask “Should libertarians desire that the practices espoused by NAMBLA be illegal” but the example you provide is not of anyone practicing anything NAMBLA. You give an example of a person who teaches children, but you provide no evidence that he has had any contact other than in this professional setting. Indeed, the context of your example is whether “thought crimes” are constitutionally protected.
In short, your question is about what liberterians would accept as a practice, but your example is about what the US law currently is.
So, we need clarification about what you’re asking.
Jim Glass
Feb 17 2024 at 7:34pm
Not al all. My question is about what libertarians would or wouldn’t make illegal as a practice.
In the teacher’s case, if the NAMBLA practices he espoused were legal the Board of Ed would have no grounds to fire him, his job would be safe. While openly espousing illegal (major felony) practices gives one’s employer a legal right to look askance at one.
So the question is: Should libertarians strive to make NAMBLA practices legal — with the consequence that NAMBLA-member teachers would be in charge of classes of minor children?
BTW, this became a real federal court case, serious arguments on both sides. If libertarians filed a “friend of the court” brief, what arguments would it make, supporting which side?
I’m not going to argue with anyone, I’m just interested in a poll of hands and some opinions as to what the libertarians here think. Nobody’s answered yet.
Jon Murphy
Feb 18 2024 at 9:14am
Not necessarily. People get fired for legal actions all the time. It depends on the context in which they work.
Now we have a third question, which is different from your first two.
I’m trying to nail down what your question is. We have three, each with different answers:
First: Is advocating certain positions a fireable offense under current law (your example from NYC)?
Second: Should acting upon certain prefrences be illegal (your original question)?
Third: Should people be punished if they hold certain prefeences but do not act upon them (lastest response)?
The answer to your first question is: it depends. That’s a matter of law, and law gets squishy. People can and do get fired for legal actions all the time. For example, it is legal for me to support or advocate for a political position. But, as a state employee, I cannot use my position to support or promote any position. I can be fired for that perfectly legal act.
The answer to your second question is more straight forward, although there will still be considerable disagreement. It depends on what one considers age of consent.
The answer to your third question is likely “no” outside some radical circles. But, again, it’ll be open for debate.
Jim Glass
Feb 20 2024 at 11:52pm
Jon, you parse my simple question X different ways. I think it was very clear:
“Should libertarians desire that the practices espoused by NAMBLA be illegal? For instance, NAMBLA parents getting together and swapping their children?”
That’s simple enough for a “yes” or “no” straight answer, though one could add an explanation to either.
This relating to the straight assertion in the original tweet:
I think most would agree that pedophilia and pederasty are considered “moral degeneracy” if anything is. So we might test the tweet’s claim by asking if libertarians consider pedophilia and pederasty to be “an issue of the political legal/order”, yes or no.
Nobody in these comments has given an answer to this question, so we see a common issue with high-principle, “meta” analysis. It’s fine and good to start with, but to have any real import it must apply in real life detail, and where the rubber meets the road meta-level high principles can prove awkward.
If the author of that tweet ever reposts its thought, someone should ask him about pedophilia and pederasty, then enjoy the ensuing conversation.
robc
Feb 17 2024 at 4:25pm
Exhibit #8,792,464 of a school related issue that is easy to solve by Separation of School and State.
JFA
Feb 17 2024 at 7:23am
Here’s one thing to consider: if there are things that everyone should accept or reject, is it at all appropriate to single out a group of people when directing the acceptance or rejection.
Would it make sense to say “doctors should not accept moral degeneracy”, or “chemistry professors should reject holocuast denial” or “plumbers should reject abortion”?
Maybe the whole issue is confusing to me because I’ve never thought of “libertarian” as an overwhelming identity for myself and could always separate my own views from those that were “appropriate” for government action.
Monte
Feb 17 2024 at 4:45pm
Murray Rothbard, a key figure of 20th century libertarianism, presents us with a bit of a conundrum. He argued that children possess a right of self‐ownership by virtue of being potential adults. Further, he maintained that parents cannot abuse, yet should not be compelled by law to provide for, their children.
Question for libertarians: If they so desire, should children be permitted to commit suicide or enter into a sexual relationship with an adult?
Jon Murphy
Feb 17 2024 at 5:31pm
I wouldn’t call Rothbard a “key figure.” He’s rather obscure outside a few circles, and there is considerable debate within those circles to the worthiness of his thought.
For example, the ideas you highlight are rejected among many libertarians and classical liberals. Children are minors. They do not possess full self ownership
Monte
Feb 17 2024 at 6:56pm
This (according to Libertarian.org):
and this (according to Wikipedia):
would lead the casual observer to conclude that he was unquestionably a key figure. I agree that some of his views (particularly with regard to children) were highly controversial and, as you say, rejected by many libertarians.
While we’re on the subject, would libertarians argue that suicide is”public good” or right that consenting adults should be permitted to exercise?
Jon Murphy
Feb 18 2024 at 9:17am
Fair enough on Rothbard. I’d argue he’s more sidelined now, but that’s pretty irrelevant to the question you’re asking. Speaking of:
By definition, no. Suicide is neither non-rival nor non-excludable. Also questionable whether it is a “good.”
Also tricky. It depends on what one means by a right being “unalienable.” Does it mean that no one, including a person, can alienate the right? Or that only the person can alienate that right?
Monte
Feb 18 2024 at 11:17am
The reason I ask is because I stumbled across an interesting paper written in 2005 by 2 economists and a psychologist suggesting that suicide, from an economic perspective, could be considered a “public good” if, say, an individual artist or celebrity were to commit such an act, resulting in a “net benefit” to society:
Libertarians, OTOH, assert that suicide “is the most fundamental right of being a human (Szasz, 2002) and a rational choice completely permissible under extenuating circumstances. But the fact that people often regret their behavior is compelling evidence that their choices were more emotional than rational.
Personally, I’m with Albert Camus: “In the end, it takes more courage to live than to kill one’s self.”
Ron Browning
Feb 18 2024 at 9:02am
The original tweet is certainly muddled in more than one way. First of all, as JFA alludes to above, libertarians are inextricably people, more so than their identity as a libertarian. Each person faces an inexhaustible supply of moral choices that are far less provocative than those explored above, and so much easier to understand.
How loud should a person talk in a particular setting? Through a lifetime of experience most people understand how they “should” adjust their volume to the particular setting but if pressed to explain in exact detail, their description of the moral rules that they follow would be clumsy and incomplete. The unending variety of settings calling for this type of judgement is amenable only to general rules an an inarticulable sense of what is proper. Those who deviate from the norm are usually “punished” by other people in a multitude of ways, some extremely nuanced, some not so. Almost nobody “accepts” or “rejects” the loudmouth as a binary choice, except when asked to articulate something that is too complex to properly articulate. The same intricacies play out in the more controversial issues, though they are probably far less meaningful than the mundane foundational issues.
diz
Mar 6 2024 at 4:46pm
I think libertarians should generally stick to the harm principle. If it doesn’t harm others the government shouldn’t be involved with policing it. Generally laws to protect against self-harm should be frowned upon, though you should certainly be free to advocate things like exercise and saving for retirement, etc.
I also think, given we have a $7 trillionish government that routinely violates the above, libertarians should avoid getting lured into hypotheticals they seem to love so much like “should someone be allowed to sell themselves into slavery” and focus on the more low hanging fruit.
Comments are closed.