There’s a thought I’ve had rolling around in my head for a while that a recent post by Scott Sumner helped bring into focus. He argued there can sometimes be a failure to understand and appreciate how people might think in fundamentally different ways from you, and how this can lead to political polarization. As he put it:
The people that cannot accept that other people like modern art suffer from a failure of imagination, an inability to grasp that other people process visual information differently than they do. People that view voters for the opposing party as evil often fail to grasp that not everyone sees political issues the way that they do.
This is similar to what Jeffrey Friedman called “ideational heterogeniety” – the idea that different minds process information in different ways. As Friedman described it,
While Friedman was talking about differences in how we process information leading to differences of interpretation and action, the more general case I had in my mind that was clarified by Scott Sumner’s post is the unknowability of other people’s subjective experience, not merely their thought processes. If you see modern art find nothing worthwhile about the experience but don’t take into account that different people have different subjective experiences that are fundamentally inaccessible to you, you might be tempted to think anyone who claims to enjoy the experience of viewing modern art is just role-playing. Call this phenomenon “experiential heterogeneity” – paraphrasing Friedman’s description, it could be described in the following way:
Aside from modern art, here’s two other cases where experiential heterogeneity can come into play. The first is from my own experience, the second comes from someone else.
I used to be a very heavy smoker. Towards the end of my time in the Marine Corps, I worked at the rifle range, and for my last year I was the Range Safety Officer and lead Combat Marksmanship Trainer for annual rifle qualification and pre-deployment combat training. This was a job that had me outdoors all day, for obvious reasons, which in turn meant I never needed to step outside for a cigarette. I could light up at any time – and I was easily going through three packs a day at that point. Eventually I decided to quit – I knew that after leaving the Marines and becoming a college student my income would plunge, so I needed to cut back on how much I spent. (Plus, there were several other excellent reasons to quit smoking – you can probably think of a few yourself!) The difficulty of quitting smoking is well-known enough to be a cultural meme, and after being such a heavy smoker for so many years, I knew I was in for a rough transition. Except, what I “knew” turned out to not be true. I had no real difficulty in quitting – it was actually pretty easy for me. What should I take from this? Here are two possibilities:
- Quitting smoking actually isn’t all that difficult. Every smoker out there who has complained about the struggle of quitting is just being a big baby.
- Quitting smoking is in fact really difficult, but I happen to possess such a Herculean level of willpower that I can easily accomplish things that are simply too difficult for the plebes.
While both of these interpretations provide an opportunity for me to grandstand in superiority, I don’t think they are true. I know people who have struggled mightily with quitting smoking who were not simply weak-willed babies – I knew too much about the many difficult things in their own life they had accomplished to dismiss them as lacking willpower or discipline. Nor, if I’m honest, can I claim to have some uniquely strong degree of willpower. There are many things in my life I’ve found to be a struggle that probably don’t seem difficult to most other people.
So what’s a third option? My subjective experience of quitting cigarettes was simply different from most other people. Thus, it wasn’t that I had superior willpower compared to my friends who have struggled with quitting. It’s more likely that it simply required far less willpower from me than from them. While it might be tempting for me to just say “Quitting smoking isn’t that hard – I know from personal experience! You’re just being lazy!”, that wouldn’t be justified. The truth is I have no idea what the process of quitting feels like to anyone else – and neither do you.
The second case comes from Ben Carpenter, one of YouTube’s many online fitness personalities. Provided you don’t have an aversion to profanity, I’d recommend you just take a few minutes to watch his video, but the short version is this. While Ben himself is very lean (being a fitness model and a training coach), his sister has struggled with her weight through her entire life. He talks about a time when he was dieting down to absurdly low body fat levels for a photoshoot, and the insane struggle he felt with his hunger while trying to maintain that level of leanness. His sister asked about how he was feeling and he described to her in great detail about how extreme his hunger was, how nothing he ate made a dent in his hunger, and as soon as he finished eating all he could think about is when he would eat again. Her response was “You’ve basically described how I feel every single day.” Carpenter describes the realization this gave him:
Ben Carpenter describes his sister as an “incredibly hard working” person, so he knows her well enough to know that her struggles with controlling her weight aren’t down to her just being a lazy weak-willed glutton. But if you just assume other people’s subjective experience is the same as yours, then you might also just assume people like Emily Carpenter are lazy and weak-willed – despite the incredible work and effort she demonstrates in other aspects of her life. But you don’t know what someone else’s hunger feels like to them. You can’t know that.
So where am I going with all of this? Well, I think in cases like I described above, regarding addiction or weight management, the views of myself on the former and Ben Carpenter on the latter are usually seen as the kinder, more compassionate view, whereas the view that it’s all just down to willpower and voluntary choice is considered the more hard-hearted view. On the other hand, the views of libertarians and classical liberals to let certain issues be handled “on the market” are often seen as being the hard-hearted view. To some, it sounds callous and uncaring to say “while having a safe job is good, money is also good. Jobs that are unusually dangerous—in the contemporary United States that’s primarily fishing, logging, and trucking—pay a premium over other working-class occupations precisely because people are reluctant to risk death or maiming at work. And in a free society it’s good that different people are able to make different choices on the risk–reward spectrum.” But I think this take, far from being callous and uncaring, is actually what shows genuine respect and even compassion for people.
Libertarians and classical liberals are much more likely to be willing to accept that “it’s good that different people are able to make different choices on the risk-reward spectrum.” But modern liberals and progressives recoil at this – they view those kinds of choices as suspect, and feel an imperative to overrule them via the state. There is often an expressed disbelief that anyone might genuinely make such a choice – surely nobody would genuinely believe higher risk for higher pay was a good trade. Such choices must surely be made under duress or perhaps out of ignorance, making their choice susceptible to an external veto by third parties.
Scott Sumner closed out his post by saying “Don’t assume that you know what’s going on in the minds of other people. You do not. You don’t believe that your neighbor needs a painkiller? How would you know? We need free markets precisely because we do not know what other people see and feel and taste.” I wholeheartedly agree. Modern liberals see others making choices that seem wrong or misguided and think this shows those choices are not genuine, or not deserving of respect, and can therefore be negated. Classical liberals see the same thing and understand that though these choices might seem strange to us, they nonetheless deserve respect and should not be subject to outside interference, because we cannot truly know the other person’s thoughts or subjective experiences, and therefore we cannot truly know what value that arrangement offers them. If I see someone making a trade-off of higher risk for higher pay that seems crazy to me, that is excellent evidence that such a trade-off is not worth it for me – but precisely zero evidence that such a trade-off isn’t genuinely worth it for them. As is often the case, Adam Smith said it the best:
The statesman who should attempt to direct people in what manner they ought to employ their capitals, would not only load himself with a most unnecessary attention, but assume an authority which could safely be trusted, not only to no single person, but to no council or senate whatever, and which would nowhere be so dangerous as in the hands of a man who had folly and presumption enough to fancy himself fit to exercise it.
READER COMMENTS
Richard W. Fulmer
Jul 10 2024 at 12:12pm
Personal differences together with the imprecision of the English language can lead to unintended insults, misunderstandings, and dad jokes (“One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I’ll never know.”)
David Seltzer
Jul 10 2024 at 3:11pm
Richard, wonderful reference to Groucho! Another Groucho quote; “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.” BTW. Check out the youtube video of Dick Cavett’s story about the first time Chico Marx was introduced to Tallulah Bankhead..
Kevin Corcoran
Jul 10 2024 at 3:13pm
Ever the optimist, I find dad jokes to be a very positive side effect indeed!
By the way, do you want to see my impression of a ceiling fan?
YAAAAY, GO CEILINGS!!!
…I’ll see myself out.
David Seltzer
Jul 10 2024 at 3:28pm
Kevin. No! Stay! When my daughter was seven, she asked me what a serial killer was. I said, someone who murders Cheerios, Wheaties and Quaker Oats! She wasn’t impressed.
David Seltzer
Jul 10 2024 at 3:23pm
Kevin. twenty-seven years ago I did a bodybuilding competition. I used extreme dieting, steroids and HGH to get my weight down from 235 pounds to 175. Body fat was 7% via calipers. I was miserable the day of competition and vowed never to do it again. Many of the pro bodybuilders with whom I trained knew the risks of continued steroid use and accepted their lives would probably end by the time they were sixty. Two of those friends died in their mid-fifties from cardiac events. For them, the experience compensated them for the risks they took.
Kevin Corcoran
Jul 10 2024 at 4:23pm
I suspect there are some people who would recoil at the bodybuilder example you brought up, and wish to discount the idea that “the experience compensated them for the risks they took.” But at the same time, this isn’t so different from other cases people more readily accept. There are all kinds of cases where people trade risk for experience – mountain climbers, for example, or cave divers. These are extremely risky activities that people will engage in simply as a hobby. The risk of death or serious harm associated with them is far from trivial. But we understand that for some people, the risk is worth it. Indeed, for some people, it’s not merely that the experience compensates them for the risk – the risk itself is part of the experience. If we suddenly developed sci-fi technology where hovering drones could follow a rock climber and instantly catch them in an antigravity beam as soon as their grip began to slip, I suspect for many rock climbers that would ruin the experience and make it no longer worth doing. There’s no nonarbitrary reason why we should say that the experience of climbing up a sheer rock wall is, for some people, worth the risk, but deny that the experience of being on stage for a bodybuilding show can be worth the risks that come with that particular lifestyle.
I’m further reminded of a bit by the (very family unfriendly) comedian Doug Stanhope, where he was talking about Steve Fossett, a high profile “adventurer” who had gone missing on one of his various escapades and whose remains had recently been found. Stanhope went on to say “An adventurer is nothing but someone who takes unnecessary risks with their own life for no benefit to humankind, just to get some adrenaline and have some fun. I’m not against it!” But he goes on to protest that adventurers and extreme sports participants are celebrated for what they do, while his own enthusiasm for mind-altering drugs doesn’t get the same regard. “I’m taking the same unnecessary risks, I’m just doing it with chemicals and my brain. Just because he’s an extreme sportsman, it’s suddenly cool? Why, because they get rock hard abs and chiseled calves, and all I get is understanding and empathy for the human condition?”
I think it’s a fair point. It doesn’t make sense to me to say “Okay you’re doing something very risky by trying to take your mountain bike down this very steep and rocky cliff, but it’s your choice to make. You, on the other hand, are also doing something risky but you’re producing the benefits of goods and services when you do it, so by means of some kind of alchemy you’re no longer allowed to make that decision for yourself like the mountain biker can.”
David Seltzer
Jul 10 2024 at 4:55pm
Kevin: Re Stanhope. He’s talking out of his ass. Steve and I were partners in a joint trading account. If ever there was a person who understood the risks of trading and other endeavors he undertook, it was Steve. To recount a few…The Iditarod 4 times. Skydiving, circumnavigating the globe in a balloon, swimming the channel. In the water for 27 hours. He died on a routine flight to scope a place where he could challenge the land speed record. The last time I spoke to him he invited me to accompany him on an archaeological dig in Israel. I’ve never known anyone like him. I once said to him, “I like to fight.” He said, “I know that about you.”
Kevin Corcoran
Jul 10 2024 at 5:05pm
I think you might have misunderstood – Stanhope wasn’t saying or implying that Fossett just didn’t understand the risks he was taking. Stanhope’s whole bit was ranting about how some kinds of risks are socially celebrated, while the kinds of risks he (Stanhope) likes to engage in don’t get the same response. He was saying, in effect, “Fossett took all these risks knowing what it meant, and people loved that about him, so why can’t I take my own risks in my own way?”
David Seltzer
Jul 10 2024 at 6:11pm
Kevin, fair points. I should have read more carefully. Thanks.
Jim Glass
Jul 10 2024 at 11:21pm
It’s not about risk.
If it was about risk then the public would esteem people who run across the Interstate amid heavy traffic going fast … swallow random doses of household poisons to see if it cripples or kills them … play Russian roulette on a coin flip … jump off a low bridge into a lake full of rocks … with a wife and kids at home, bet the family mortgage on a craps throw in Atlantic City … and countless other stupid easy idiotic ways to self-damage and die. (The wife would kill after Atlantic City).
OTOH, nobody expects to die skydiving, racing the Iditarod, swimming the English Channel, ballooning across a continent, climbing Kilimanjaro … People expect to survive doing these things, accomplishing then by facing fears while increasing courage, skills, and endurance. These are examples of accomplishment and self-improvement that can be inspirational for every human being in each person’s own way.
These are two very different categories of behavior. The public holds one in much higher regard than the other, obviously. If Stanhope doesn’t see this — or know into which category the public puts ‘sitting around doing drugs’ — then his drug use sure isn’t giving him the “understanding and empathy for the human condition” of his conceit. Time to try another dealer?
Peter Gerdes
Jul 10 2024 at 7:40pm
When it comes to claims about liking modern art or liking expensive wine, people aren’t doubting that the individual gains some joy out of the experience. They are doubting that they are gaining joy **for the reasons they claim to experience it.** and therefore casts doubt on various claims that it is worthy of societal funding or should be regarded as high status by the rest of us.
Consider the various experiments showing that most people enjoy cheap wine they falsely **believe** to be expensive just as much as expensive wine. That strongly suggests the enjoyment isn’t actually coming from some kind of intrinsically superior taste or quality of the wine but a perception they are doing something fancy or even a kind of smugness. I’d argue there is plenty of reason to believe that something similar is going on with modern art. Yes, the individuals are enjoying their experience of it but that enjoyment is really largely being provided based on their internal belief they are experiencing something profound which they then fill in with their own thoughts.
And that’s fine. We all do this. Truth is that most of us can’t tell the difference between an original and a print of any kind of art. But taking account of this does undercut the implicit attempts to claim superiority or important social commentary by said works of art. And that’s really what most people object to.
Ron Browning
Jul 11 2024 at 7:21am
I watched a cell tower being built over a couple of months. Few people would have the nerve to be working as high up as these guys eventually were. I assumed that some were overcoming their fear and risking life and limb for the benefit of their children. I assumed also, that some women were declining to work that high paying job for the exact same reason.
steve
Jul 11 2024 at 9:49am
I think your characterization of liberals and progressives is true for some of them, but I believe that most are just fine with people having the freedom to chart their own course and compete to get there. What they want is to try to make sure the playing field is level and the recognition that some people have issues like disabilities that require help if they are to thrive or even survive. Without intervention women would mostly still be at home with the kids or confined to jobs like teachers or secretaries. Libertarians seem to think that you just the say the word markets and property rights and everyone would suddenly be equal but that’s not how people work.
On the cigarettes I think there is a good bit of evidence that addiction for many people has some genetic influence. Most people exposed to narcotics are fine with them. Some small percentage almost immediately want more of them. Narcotics clearly work differently on different people with some people needing a lot more of them. There is also some similar evidence for cigarettes though environmental factors also play a part.
https://news.emory.edu/stories/2021/07/esc_genetic_risks_for_nicotine_dependence/campus.html
Steve
JdL
Jul 11 2024 at 10:32am
Reading your personal example, I vowed to comment about people struggling with weight, but you beat me to it with your second example. I’m one of the lucky ones who doesn’t have to struggle very hard to stay trim, but I know it’s not because I have extra will-power or some other virtue; I’m just lucky. Similarly, a woman I know worked for years as a bartender and had a considerable amphetamine habit, but when she decided to quit was surprised to find it no particular hardship, a sharp contrast to most habitual users.
Excellent column; important points.
Thomas L Hutcheson
Jul 11 2024 at 2:38pm
It is far too easy for someone who does not understand the blind spot that Libertarians have toward externalities, to believe that this kind of reasoning is just a cover for distaste for redistribution.
David Seltzer
Jul 12 2024 at 12:15pm
Thomas: Please give me an example of Libertarian’s blind spot when it comes to externalities. Positive and negative. How does your comment relate to Kevin’s post on experiential heterogeneity? Thanks.
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