A recurrent theme in public discourse centers on the “excessive“ profits that some firms make. These profits are depicted as “immoral“, and people urge the government to intervene.
Profits should be distinguished from the remuneration that you receive for your labor or from interest payments on your capital. Profits, in contrast, are what entrepreneurs reap for having discovered a price discrepancy. That is, we make a profit because we correctly noted yesterday that the price for oil was too low; we bought the oil, and are today able to sell it at a higher price. This pure price difference is the profit we make.
We are able to make profits because there is radical ignorance in an uncertain world – what Frank Knight famously described in Risk, Uncertainty and Profit: as we have limited knowledge in an unexpectedly changing and thus uncertain world, we falsely estimate the prices of things. Put simply, the reason we could profit from the oil trade is that the price was too low yesterday. If the supply and demand situation of today had been correctly priced in yesterday, we could not have made aprofit.
So, what does this tell us about when the profits of some firms are very high? Apparently, some entrepreneurs had been able to estimate the ‘true’ price of the good much better than others. Only these entrepreneurs took the appropriate action and bought at prices that, as we know today, were too low the day before.
There are two reasons for their high profit. Firstly, other citizens overlooked the price discrepancies and erroneously did not invest in these areas. This is the reason why entrepreneurs could buy goods at prices too low, and it is the reason why they now, as prices have surged, make such a huge profit. So, the first culprit for high profits are we all. It was our failure to see that the prices had been flawed. If we had bought up prices so that they had reached their ‘correct’ height, no excessive profits or rather no profits at all would have emerged.
There is, however, a second culprit. And this is the government that creates barriers to entry. Doing so, the government makes it difficult for entrepreneurs to enter the market and gain profits – and thereby correct prices and, ultimately, decrease profits for the entrepreneurs overall. Imagine a young entrepreneur who yesterday had wanted to buy oil. If he had bought oil, his demand would have pushed prices higher and thus decreased today’s profits for the other entrepreneurs. However, the government had erected barriers: he first had to obtain a license to be able to buy oil. As such, it was the government that erected barriers to entry that hindered entrepreneurs from acting upon their perceived profit opportunity that, incidentally, would have decreased the profits for all while also driving prices nearer to their optimum that would have improved the situation today, as higher prices would have signaled to expand production. Today, there are manifold ways in which the government erects such barriers.
High profits, at first sight, seem reprehensible to many. These greedy capitalists making money on the backs of other people! But a closer look at the economic mechanisms behind profits reveals a more nuanced picture. Profits are what entrepreneurs reap for their adept foresight and capacity to act out on their visions of the future. With this, they do consumers a huge favor, proved by our willingness to buy their products. But they, in most cases at least, do not restrict competition. Others can freely compete with them. If the would-be rivals do not enter and those in the market make huge profits, the established entrepreneurs are doing nothing wrong. The profits they make are so huge because others were bad entrepreneurs and did not enter the market as well.
We should be thankful to those entrepreneurs who correctly anticipated and took a risk – and offered us goods that we now direly want. And we should rather look with scorn at ourselves. Why didn’t we sense the false prices and correct them earlier? That the profits for some are “excessively high“ is, in most cases at least, not their evil scheming. It is our failure to match their entrepreneurial skills. And, of course, sometimes these profits are the result of the government putting obstacles in the way of lucid entrepreneurs. It is to the government and to ourselves that we should look when we witness “excessive” profits. What we should not do is condemn those who make profits.
Max Molden is a PhD student at the University of Hamburg. He has worked with European Students for Liberty and Prometheus – Das Freiheitsinstitut. He regularly publishes at Der Freydenker.
READER COMMENTS
vince
Apr 7 2023 at 12:41pm
By definition, excessive profit is … excessive. Shouldn’t a good system–the rules of the game–prevent excess (defined democratically, in advance)?
Richard W Fulmer
Apr 7 2023 at 2:13pm
In the case of government-intervention-caused excessive profits, yes. In the case of free market profits, no.
In the first case, removing the intervention – for example, restriction on market entry – is both the most ethical and effective response to “excessive” profits. Such restrictions are both immoral and counterproductive.
In the second case, preventing large profits earned through free exchange is neither moral nor socially beneficial. For example, suppose that an entrepreneur develops a new product or service that benefits millions of people and, in the process, earns huge profits. There is no moral case for confiscating the wealth he or she gained by benefiting others.
There is also no practical case for confiscating such wealth. First, we want people to be rewarded for benefitting others, thus creating incentives for such socially desirable behavior. Second, we want resources to flow to those who have a proven track record of using them to benefit others. Third, we want others to be incentivized to compete with the entrepreneur so that the product or service will be improved and provided at a lower price.
Jon Murphy
Apr 7 2023 at 2:15pm
Define “excess”
Jon Murphy
Apr 7 2023 at 2:17pm
As a direct answer to your question (the reasoning of which will appear in your response to my earlier post): no. A good society shouldn’t prevent excess profits however defined
vince
Apr 7 2023 at 3:06pm
Isn’t perfect competition ideal? With perfect competition, there should be no excess profit.
Jon Murphy
Apr 7 2023 at 3:22pm
No. It’s a model. It carries no normative weight. If you want to treat it as ideal, then excess profit is desirable.
There’s no profit (in the long run). So, there cannot be excess profit. But profit (excess or otherwise) gets us the necessary competition to get the perfectly competitive outcome.
vince
Apr 7 2023 at 4:00pm
You’re right, and you’re wrong … it’s a model AND an ideal!!!
But you’re just wrong about no profit. Profit is the return to the entrepreneur. No profit, no entrepreneur!!!
Jon Murphy
Apr 7 2023 at 4:18pm
Some may treat it that way. I, however, do not (nor do many economists). In fact, I am working on a pedagogy paper on teaching perfect competition so as to avoid that very mistake. Perfect competition is a benchmark, not an ideal.
You’d fail my class, then. In the short run, profits may exist. But since there is costless entry, firms will enter the market in pursuit of profit. The market supply increases and price falls to the point where price = average total cost, which is the zero profit level.
Precisely correct. That’s Molden’s point. That’s why many economists reject perfect competition as the ideal.
vince
Apr 7 2023 at 4:41pm
Funny. So let me ask you, how is an entrepreneur compensated?
Jon Murphy
Apr 7 2023 at 5:02pm
By the way, you will find a good discussion on the perfecly competitive model in this zero monetary cost textbook.
Jon Murphy
Apr 7 2023 at 5:03pm
It’s profit, just as you say.
vince
Apr 7 2023 at 5:53pm
It really comes down to definitions. The usual and broadest meaning of profit is the bottom line of an income statement. It allows for compensation to the entrepreneur and is often more than perfect competition would allow. That was the term that I used and that you disputed. The quote you gave from the textbook narrowed it with an adjective, calling it economic profit. That version isn’t consistent with perfect competition. Another narrow definition is normal profit. Normal profit is consistent with perfect competition.
Jon Murphy
Apr 7 2023 at 6:14pm
You really ought to read the chapter I linked to.
Jon Murphy
Apr 7 2023 at 6:23pm
Actually, you should probably start with the chapter before it; I had assumed you had a working knowledge of what “profit” is.
To be clear, my dispute was with your use of the word “excess” and your invoking perfect competition as “ideal.” This conversation has only served to make things more obscure, as you seem to be whiplashing among several definitions of profit as well as an incorrect understanding of perfect competition.
I don’t know what your theory is.
vince
Apr 7 2023 at 6:40pm
You get credit for that. I used profit with its usual meaning. After you twisted it, I tried to bail you out.
Jon Murphy
Apr 8 2023 at 7:32am
That’s part of my point; you may think you did, but in reality, you invoked several and just spring back and forth among them not realizing differences.
First, you invoked profit in terms of the perfectly competitive model. That is total revenue minus total cost. That is the definition I use as well.
Then, you switched to the “bottom line” (aka “accounting profit”) which is total revenue minus explicit costs. That is all well and good, but irrelevant to the conversation. After all, you invoked perfect competition (and thus zero profit) as the ideal, so you ought to stick with that.
Then, you switched back to profit as the gains to the entrepreneur, which is total revenue minus total cost.
If you want to use accounting profit, that is fine*, but given you invoked a model that uses a specific definition of profit = total revenue – total cost, you really ought to stick with that definition rather than whiplash back and forth.
*Though it is worth noting that even accounting profit falls to zero in the long run in the perfectly competitive model.
vince
Apr 8 2023 at 12:17pm
Thanks for the laughs. This is hilariously petty and you are hilariously wrong. You like to play silly word games. I won’t play your game after this.
As I said, profits are consistent with perfect competition. That’s true–unless you change the definition. Surely you recognize that words have more than one meaning. You should be able to recognize the correct one from the way the word is used. You seem to have trouble with word usage that isn’t fit your particular preference.
Take a time out and go to the link from Profits in the the Molden article. It really should help you. It’s an article written by Lester Thurow. You may notice how profit can be split into a normal component and a component beyond that. Dare we call that excess profit? Excess profit invites competition. Normal profit does not. Thurow says it succinctly.
Jon Murphy
Apr 8 2023 at 12:47pm
Again, normal profit in a perfectly competitive model is zero.
As an aside, I think it’s funny you accuse me of playing word games when I’m using a constant and usual definition of profit while you’re using two, sometimes three, different versions and claiming you’re being consistent.
Jon Murphy
Apr 9 2023 at 10:31am
Here’s the problem, Vince:
Even if we take your incorrect understanding of profit and the perfectly competitive model to be true, there’s still a major problem:
The perfectly competitive model is a zero innovation model (recall that one of the assumptions is perfectly identical products).
Above, you say that zero innovation means zero entrepreneures and you say that is a bad thing.
So: why do you choose the perfectly competitive model to be the ideal?
Thomas Hutcheson
Apr 7 2023 at 3:41pm
I’m more concerned about deficient profits in activities that substitute for activities that produce negative externalities and research into ways of making those substitutes less costly. I guess one could turn this around and say the problem is excess profits in the activities that produce the negative externalities.
john hare
Apr 7 2023 at 5:38pm
I sometimes make a profit on a job well in excess of normal. I also sometimes lose money on jobs. Uninvolved people have no right to call my profit excess. If the customer thinks so, then the customer should have gotten a better bid, if possible.
My attitude does not extend to those lying to and cheating their customers. That should be a legal issue though, and is not excess profits. Rather it is criminal.
Max Molden
Apr 10 2023 at 1:28pm
I agree with you on that, John! That’s why I put it in quotation marks in the text. My main point was rather to take the talk on “excess profits” as a given. But to be correct one should talk of high profits, never of excessive (or too high) profits.
Mark
Apr 8 2023 at 2:15am
Unfortunately this explanation only works under the assumption of many competitors. Since the market is shared between a few oil and gas companies (possibly with cartel like structure), they can dictate prices and the whole story of the clever entrepreneur pictured in the article breaks down.
Jon Murphy
Apr 9 2023 at 10:29am
Fun fact: you only need three firms to get pricing similar to perfect competition (in theory, two, but the assumptions are extremely strong).
As a factual matter, that is untrue, (firms are still contrained by the demand curve) but let’s assume it is true. That leads to the question: why don’t they dictate prices?
Max Molden
Apr 10 2023 at 1:45pm
Mark, as Jon pointed out you rely on the perfect competition model. There are serious criticisms of that, for instance, Hayek’s paper “The Meaning of Competition”.
I understand competition to mean rivalry — it is about how you behave. In short, we want competitive behaviour in that producers go out of their way to offer the best products at the cheapest prices to the consumers. The producer can behave in such a way if he is the only producer. But also, producers may not behave competitively when there are many competitors, that is, when these producers are all protected by government — perhaps agriculture in Europe is a good example for that. Decisive is that there are no barriers to entry such that those who do not produce best what consumers want will be threatened by the entry of new, better competitors. Barriers to entry creates competitive behaviour. And this competitive behaviour is what we want — not a static economic structure that some describe as perfect competition.
I think you would enjoy reading Armentano’s work Antitrust: The Case for Repeal. Especially interesting is the Alcoa case.
Thomas Hutcheson
Apr 8 2023 at 8:01am
I’m concerned about the excess profit that arises from net income in which the costs do not include the costs imposed on others, negative externalities, in other words. [fossil fuel production] There is a corresponding concern about deficient profits in activities that substitute for negative externality profits. [energy generated from geothermal sources] Excess profits can also arise from activities that substitute for activities that are restricted by regulation [higher rents arising from zoning restrictions on construction of new residences]
These excess and deficient profits need to be addressed by regulatory reform and Pigou taxation/subsidies.
Jon Murphy
Apr 9 2023 at 10:34am
There’s no theoritical reason to think so. Recall Coase’s famous 1960 paper. Or, for that matter, the Second Law of Demand. Recall also implicit pricing that currently exists.
Regukatory reform probably does need to happen, though. There are so many regulations that just serve to make externalities from CO2 worse (especially subsidies to green energy).
THOMAS HUTCHESON
Apr 9 2023 at 10:35pm
There may be no “theoretical” reason to use Pigou taxes, but empirically the transaction costs of all CO2 emitters contracting with all those benefiting and being harmed by the emissions has so far prevented the mergence of a market. Pigou taxation looks like an empirical second best.
Jon Murphy
Apr 10 2023 at 7:48am
As a factual matter, that is false. There is an informal market in carbon (see John Nye’s 2008 paper The Problem of Pigou).
Almost all of the empirical research that has come out since the 1960s indicates that no, Pigou isn’t second best. Or even third. In fact, a recent working paper by Casey B Mulligan points to research that shows Pigou actually makes things worse in situations like carbon where there the consumers whose demand creates the externality, the individuals who are harmed by the externality, and the entity who controls the disbursement of the tax are distinct entities. Mulligan shows that, even assuming a perfect (ie costless to develop and administer) Pigouvian tax, “the net value of implementing the optimal Pigou tax would be less than the cost of the manmade climate change that would occur at the quantity q_u and less than the harm to consumers from imposing the tax.”
I have a model I will be presenting at the SEA meetings this November where I show that a Pigouvian tax is not welfare enhancing even by its own standards once all costs and all benefits are taken into account.
Ken
Apr 8 2023 at 10:08am
So lack of capital isn’t a barrier to entry? Don’t most excessive profit scenarios arise from markets where there is a monopoly/oligopoly? I thought we all knew that capitalism’s one weakness is the inevitable consolidation into monopolies which ironically is anticompetitive. If I had a dollar for every profit opportunity that I identified like a “good entrepreneur” that I didn’t have the capital to, well, capitalize on it (heh), I’d have enough money to create my own monopoly.
Richard W Fulmer
Apr 9 2023 at 3:48pm
It is, but that doesn’t necessarily lead to monopoly. While neither you nor I individually have the capital needed to build (say) an oil refinery, we do if we – along with other investors – pool our resources. In addition, other companies certainly have the resources. If profits are high enough, who – other than the government – is going to keep Amazon out of the refining business?
Consolidation of any new market is probably inevitable, but consolidation doesn’t translate into monopoly. If extraordinary profits are being made in an industry, investors will find a way into that market as long as government doesn’t block entry.
Jon Murphy
Apr 10 2023 at 7:38am
That was a socialist trope in the 30s, but it never proved true. Capitalist economies are far far more dynamic than socialist or other economic systems. Rather than monopolies becoming commonplace, monopolies are transient in capitalist economies. They die fairly quickly.
In my classes, I like to assign the poem Ozymandias when discussing monopolies. Why? Because the poem discusses the fall of seemingly unconquerable leviathans. In the lecture, I have a slide up during our discussion that lists monopolies that were, at one time or another, proclaims to be untouchable…and who now lie forgotten to history:
Myspace
Sears
Blockbuster
Blackberry
I could add other companies that were once proclaimed monopolies but are now just ordinary:
Wal-Mart
IBM
Facebook
Capitalist economies, rather than having a tendency toward anticompetitive* structures, have a tendency toward competition. All barriers can be overcome. The 2nd Law of Demand tells us so.
*It’s worth noting that monopolies are not strictly anticompetitive. They can be, but they are not necessarily.
Max Molden
Apr 10 2023 at 2:07pm
This is an inspiring poem, Jon! And thanks for all the enlightening comments here, much appreciated!
I may perhaps point you to a paper by Holcombe, though, that would, on a meta-level, take issue with your statement that “Capitalist economies, rather than having a tendency toward anticompetitive* structures, have a tendency toward competition.” Holcombe writes:
I’m not sure whether this is necessarily at odds with your statement, but it is at least something to consider regarding the competitiveness of capitalism when seeing capitalism on a system level, and as a system that can turn into a mixed economy!
Jon Murphy
Apr 10 2023 at 2:34pm
Hi Max,
Thanks for linking to Randy’s article; I’m a big fan of his and I am surprised this article has escaped my notice. I haven’t read it yet, though I don’t think there’s necessarily a contradiction between what he is saying and what I am saying. Randy is 100% correct that many in a capitalist system want to stabilize the status quo. That action in and of itself is evidence to my point that capitalism discourages monopolies; folks need “extra-economic” (to coin a term) actions in order to maintain monopolies. And thus we do get a tendency toward mixed economies, which is additional evidence against the point of concentration.
If you haven’t already, you might enjoy reading Sandy Ikeda’s book “Dynamics of a Mixed Economy.” He discusses the mechanisms that keep us in a mixed system rather than tumbling all the way towards socialism (like the socialists predicted) or capitalism (like Mises predicted).
Max Molden
Apr 10 2023 at 3:15pm
Good point, Jon! Seen from this perspective I wholeheartedly agree with you.
I think one can, however, question how broad one should understand captialism to be. Holcombe uses the term political capitalism to describe our current system, and if you understand political capitalism as capitalism of some sort, then that opens the door for arguing that the extra-economic activities are part of capitalism. And then there’d be tendencies against monopolization in capitalism AND tendencies towards monopolization as well. “Is political capitalism a natural evolutionary extension of capitalism?” asks Holcombe (Political Capitalism, p. 16), and he tends to think the argument can be made.
I personally do not think it lucky to use the term as Holcombe does (and thus would side with you), but I don’t want to pronounce my final judgment as of now!
Thanks for the suggestion of Ikeda — actually, my research is on interventions, so Ikeda’s work already is a daily companion 🙂
Jon Murphy
Apr 10 2023 at 5:24pm
Yeah and I think Randy is right. I mean, you cannot really talk about an economic system without the institutions surrounding it (for better or for worse). So any disagreement will really be about effects and boundaries of various institutions. And that conversation is of interest only to other economists 🙂
Then might I shamelessly plug my paper on failure? I use some of Ikeda’s book to discuss how regulators can be unaware of feedback from their interventions and that can lead to bad policy persisting.
Jon Murphy
Apr 10 2023 at 7:40am
There’s an entire industry, a massive one in fact, that is dedicated to overcoming that barrier: the finance industry. So, no, lack of capital isn’t really a barrier.
Monte
Apr 8 2023 at 2:32pm
Yes. “Limited knowledge in an unexpectedly changing and thus uncertain world” (a.k.a. information asymmetry) creates an arbitrage opportunity for “taking advantage of a difference in prices in two or more markets” resulting in a profit.
Right. Abnormal (or supernormal) profits are simply a market signal for other firms to step in, which cause supplies to increase, prices to fall, and normal profits to return (unless there are barriers to entry).
As you point out, entrepreneurs should be celebrated, not condemned, for bringing goods and services to market that earn abnormal or supernormal profits. And we should rely on the market, not government, to normalize those profits.
vince
Apr 10 2023 at 12:39pm
Worth repeating. For anyone who wants a longer explanation, I recommend the link in the original article to the excellent Profits article written by Lester Thurow.
Jonathan Lachman
Apr 9 2023 at 10:28am
Is the point at which there is no ‘profit’ referring to an economic or an accounting profit?
Jon Murphy
Apr 9 2023 at 4:21pm
In the case of the perfectly competitive market, both in the long run (though I emphasize that only economic profit matters for decision making purposes)
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